I agree with blondguy's last post.

Mate, being genuine and honest is probably one of the most attractive things you can do. By pretending you're not interested she will think you're scared of rejection (which by the sounds of it you are) and that that's why you're hiding your interest. I disagree with being indirect and I think it's a waste of time, but I can see why you do it (to guage her reaction and not show interest til she shows you some). The thing is she doesn't see it like that, she nows exactly why you approached her, and sees it as you being afraid to come out and say that you really approached her because you're interested in her, and so she thinks you're a pussy and loses interest in you, especially when she questions you like that and you carry on trying to show disinteret. She knows you're interested, it's game over if you don't tell the truth.

Also you talk about value, let me ask you something... Does a high value, confident, attractive guy need to pretend not to be interested in a girl he likes? Or is he more likely to be completely honest and not give a shit whether she likes it or not? Lying comes from insecurity. You don't really care about getting an opinion from her, that's not why you approached her at all, she knows that. Being honest is a hard thing to do, because then you're putting yourself on the line and if she rejects the real you it might hurt your feelings... But that's why being completely honest is attractive. Only strong, brave people can be 100% honest.

She takes control of the situation when she pulls out the shit test.

Since she knows you're trying to pick her up how about diffusing the shit test and a few seconds later showing direct interest on your own terms not her terms with her shit test.


exmaple 1: handing a shit test and letting her call the shots on the conversation. the bad way.
pua:i like you vibe or some shit.(showing interest)
HB:thanks youre just trying to pickmeup(shit test)
pua:yeah youre right i like you.
(falling DIRECTLY into the shit test cuz u gave her the answer she wanted to hear when she asked for it)


example 2: handling a shit test by diffusing it, but then immediately giving her what she wants because you gave it to her not because she asked you to give it to her.

pua:u from around here?(interest)
hb:why? u wanna stalk me(shit test)
pua:youre sitting on the bad side of the bus. the locals know which is the good part(diffuse)
HB: yeah im from here(she might say this or just tell her the coffee line below)
pua:im going to to the local coffee place. join me.(direct interest)
hb:that will lead to fucking.(shit test)
pua:were both grownups we dont have to do anything we dont want to.(diffuse)
pua: coffee is an innocent start.(bring out direct interest on your own terms again to makeup for that shit test destroyer.)


Is this a better way to handle shit tests? Or if I express direct interest should I just give her the answer she wants to hear.

My new main point is that is it okay to diffuse a shit test by showing IOD and then show direct interest on your own terms? I mean even if you're being direct "I like your style" or w.e the heck and she brings up the shit test "youre just trying to hit on me" can i diffuse that shit test and then show some super direct interest a few seconds later by making a different point.

THANK YOU!

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Dont worry about it! The fact you made this mistake is that your at least trying. Now you realise you cant just go up to a girl and stand near her to meet her(!) Learn from this and come home, congratulate yourself for just the effort, then apply the knowledge given here and go out and try again with a method from an established member (try saying Hi for instance!).
Going up and standing next to her and waiting for her response isnt in any pick up method Ive read!lol
Your new at this so just try something simple like hi how you doing then just tell her your just learning how to talk to girls . Simple go out and see what the results are and learn from them, come back, see what you did wrong, see what you can do better instead and go out again. Practise, practise practise but if this stuff really bothers you you got to learn how to handle that first (I have just)

EXACTLY!

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I see what you guys are saying.

I just remember looking at this video where this guy goes indirect on a chick and gets her number but as she gives the number she states that she's got a boyfriend...

Why the fuck would she say that if she didn't automatically assume that this guy getting her number and approaching was not a pickup.

Thanks a bunch everyone I'm practicing direct now. It just makes things so much easier than trying to bring up clever ways to avoid showing interest which 90% of them come off as bullshit. Hell the reason I made this thread in the 1st place because even I thought I was coming off as a bullshitter and wanted to come off less as a bullshitter and the only way to present myself as not bullshit is by being direct.

Because she's trying to convince herself that she's not a slut that's about to cheat on her boyfriend? Because her boyfriend is lame, but she's ambivalent about dumping him? Because she has a weak mind and isn't rational, honest, or responsible about her cognitive dissonance? Her actions speak louder than words, she handed over the phone number.
I never understood how your "standing dynamics" arose in the 1st place. My 1st reaction to "why are you standing here" is... "Why are YOU standing here??" Why not just fuck with her if she's being like that? I'd try to be funny about fucking with her, but if she's determined to be a bitch, who cares? "Ok clearly you want my spot. Rock, paper, scissors for it." [immediate throwdown. Hold the pose and stare at her when she completely fails to play along.] If she doesn't laugh and persists in being a frightened bitch about stuff, who cares?

What I'm saying is, why meet aggression with honesty? Why not meet aggression with aggression?

Another possibility is to meet aggression with a really good joke. "Why are you standing here?" "Because..." [concerned and careful upturned gaze] "...the 16 ton weight is going to drop right... about... there." [point at her feet]

Why not meet aggression with incredulity? That was part of my challenge above, but here's another slant on it. "Why are you standing here?" "Because my spot is better than your spot??" [she blah blahs like a bitch] "No really, there's a real estate listing on it. Mine's worth more." [blah blah blah] "I'm not selling." [blah blah] "Hey I take property rights pretty seriously." [blah blah blah] "You know my dog has a way of settling this usually."

"Why are you standing here?" "It's part of my nefarious plan to take over the Earth... one... square... foot... at a time."

I think I could clown this all night. I think you get the idea: you don't "owe" her anything. Not an explanation, not honesty, not directness, not a space on the floor. She gives you shit, you can give her shit too. Just be funnier and better at it than she is.

While I agree with most of what you just said, I think you're missing the point. Even though he went indirect she knew exactly why he was after her number. Some girls are ok with that, others will think it's really creepy.
Yeah you could come up with these funny responses, you might get a laugh out of her and turn the situation around, but I think it makes more sense just to be direct, it's much quicker, less fucking about, and actually takes less effort.

The thing is the girl here had already made her mind up that you were a creep for standing there and not saying what you really wanted, any of these responses would still have gotten you blown out. You can have the "I don't owe her shit so I'm going to be just as aggressive back" attitude, but that isn't going to help you fuck her is it? It's only gonna make her worse. Don't get mad, get laid

I think you are missing the point. Her actions speak louder than her words. If she hands over the phone number it doesn't matter if she's "ok" with it or thinks it's "creepy." If it's creepy then clearly she actually likes creepy, and wants to be fucked by someone creepy. You don't need her permission, you need her evolutionary responses to dominance and authority.
Do whatever you want. You just admitted that funny responses work fine for someone, if not you.
No, it means that you displayed fear instead of skill.
If she's a biker, punk, or goth chick it jolly well might! Even if it doesn't, it'll jolly well help you with the next woman, because you won't feel like you have to take shit from them and you won't approach such situations from a position of fear.

No I am not, you are, lol... My point is that being direct is much more effiicient than being indirect and trying to pretend that you're not interested, there are many reasons.

This time yes he was successful in getting the number. Indirect guys get a lot more numbers than guys who go direct. You'll notice though that indirect guys also get a hell of a lot more flakes than direct guys do.

My point about the number was that even though he was indirect (trying to hide his intentions), she knew what he was approaching her for. That's why she handed over the number. They ALWAYS know why you're approaching them. Always. Imagine what they think about you hiding your intentions? They think you're a pussy. They will also often think that it is kind of creepy. A lot of the time girls will give their numbers out just to get rid of you, and they will never text or ring you back. This is more common in indirect game than direct game. Direct game you will get blown out straight away by uninterested girls, which saves wasting time texting and ringing dead numbers. In direct game you will also not be seen as 'creepy' or as a pussy for hiding your intentions.
Of course it can work sometimes, but again being direct is in my opinion much more effective. I know plenty of guys that can make girls laugh, yet they don't get laid. Being a comedian does not get you laid, it only gets you liked. Surely we should focus on the most efficient way to fuck the girl?
Exactly, you displayed fear of rejection by being indirect.
Well no, the goal here is to get laid. Yeah it might work with some girls, but most will just use it as an excuse to blow you out. Why would you want to do that? I'd rather be getting my dick sucked at the end of the night than waste time trying to get one over on a girl. Of course you don't need to take a girl's shit, but by breaking rapport and causing an arguement or trying to be funny when this girl is giving you shit you're only going to make it worse. Much easier to be genuine, then if the girl is still bitchy fuck her...

That's so vague though. I don't live my life by the law of averages. Sounds like these guys need to qualify better, rather than simply thinking with their dicks. By "qualify" I mean that I personally happen to want non-flaky, intelligent, action-taking women. That's what I find attractive. I'm not just after a bod. My tastes aren't everyone's; my tastes happen to solve that particular problem. Pretty much every gal that flaked on me in recent memory, I knew it was going to happen even before I opened her. I knew I was thinking with my dick because I didn't have anything better going on.
Who's hiding? Being smooth isn't hiding. You're still boiling the frog, you're just turning up the heat gradually instead of dropping it straight in. The smoothest operator I've ever run into took me for $20 in New Orleans, even though I knew his bet had to have a trick in his favor somewhere. He got me liking the performance enough and thinking I was smart enough that I actually agreed to pay up when he beat me. I got a good lesson in "smooth" and the best version of that particular hustle available. Other guys were total chumps compared to how this man worked.
I consider getting a phone number to be a stage. I don't simply look for a body, I'm also looking for personality factors as well. The personality is meant to be the bridge to sex, the reason why she's going to answer my phone call. Frankly if we're fucking within 3 dates I'm not worried about it. Everyone who's ever had chemistry with me has always done so in that timeframe, no PUA involved.

Hooking up with women who don't really have an adequate personality for me, who are just hot, is a new area for me that I can't claim any mastery or success in. That is not necessarily a problem, as I don't define myself by how many notches are on my tallywhacker. I'd like to try to nail some women who "aren't really my type," but it's not super important to me. It's more like, something I'd like to do before finding The Right One, getting married, and having kids. I don't have to get married today but I'm not getting any younger, so in the next few years I want to be on it. I see PUA as a way to maximize the desirability of an eventual mate. I do not want any sense of scarcity in my life that causes me to "settle" for someone.

I #closed a painter woman at an avant garde theater performance on Saturday night. She was great. The only problem is she has a fiancee. My values are that I don't mess up relationships that are perfectly fine. I'll only stick my dick in if they're dying and should be put out of their misery. I don't know anything about that at this point, and from her demeanor I have no reason to believe she has doubts about her fiancee. So that's disappointing, but I figure she can come out to bars and draw in public with me. She'll demonstrate that I'm a Leader of Artists and a Leader of Women. Maybe if I meet enough pivots like this, who are bound to me by Art, I'll be the greatest Pick Up Artist who ever lived. No, I kid. Picasso already took the cake a long time ago, and plenty of others doing nothing more than nude girly drawings.
We agree that you should not do that when being indirect. Your internal game should not be one of fear, hiding, or rationalizing what you want.

Example: at that same theater performance on Saturday, it was nowhere near a full house. I sat down right next to 2 cute girls, even though there were seats free in the row and I could have sat farther away. I did not give them any initial attention. I did not make any furtive glances at them, I pretty much ignored them. Actually I really didn't think about the "seat filling creepiness" of any of it until after I had sat down, it really wasn't a factor in my thinking. I also realized that with my algorithm, I was "saving 2 seats next to each other" for some other couple that would surely wander in. Indeed, within 5 minutes some other couple did so. I offered them the 2 seats, de-creeping any doubts of the gals next to me, and establishing that I am gracious. To someone else. Then I noticed that she had a schedule and I didn't, so I asked if I could see it. No prob. Other things, fine, all very easy. Talked about stuff occasionally, could have easily pressed matters.

Why didn't I #close her? They were way too young. The whole theater was like this. The play, although very good, was put on by students from a local college and most women who came to see it were college age. I had hoped the performance would have a bit more of a career adult draw, but it was not to be.
The only gal who looked like she might "be something" sat alone, in the empty right bank of seats, isolating herself with her beret, her body language, and her scowl...

When the show ended, I couldn't help but go up to the stage and look at the theater sets. They were so innovative. I went out to the lobby and tried to participate in a conversation of ushers, but they were too young. I almost left the theater, thinking everyone's too young here. I went back into the theater one last time, because I was not satisfied. I wanted to see if there was anyone / anything I had missed, that I could hit on before I left. And there she was, Ms. Isolation in a beret, looking at the theater sets just like I had done 7 minutes earlier. Nobody else had done so, just us. Of course I knew I was in like flint, walked right up to her, and started talking about the sets. Talked about the performance. Talked about Art. Found out she was a painter. Asked her how she was entertaining herself the rest of the evening. She had a fiancee and was going to her studio to paint, but I got her number. She was enthused about drawing in public, and starting an art group. Walked her to her car. Pretty darned easy, nothing wasted. My $12 was worth the theater performance alone.
No, the goal is whatever you want. If you want to have fun telling some chick to fuck off, you can do that. When it's about your goals you will do better with women overall. You're talking battles, I'm talking wars.
In the OP's example, there was no rapport. She started arguing. So you approached her badly and precipitated it with your nervous standing around. Your pheromones reek of fear because you're uncomfortable with your sexuality and you're still very much AFC. Yeah, so what. Not like it's never been done before; it's still her that started arguing. She's still being a bitch. If you find yourself in an argument with a girl, be better at it than her. Be more incisive, and be funnier. You may turn her around with your wit, humor, and good attitude. If not, fuck her! She doesn't deserve to Ride With The Joker. Carve a smile across her face as she dies, ha ha ha ha ha! You think women like assholes, and respond better to assholes? Take that moment to PRACTICE BEING AN ASSHOLE. After she totally deserves it, of course. I only tweak people for their own good.

Guess we just have completely different ideas and goals