Wow man, ok obviously there is a whole bunch in this community in terms of a backlash agaisnt MM. BUT 90% of the PU product out there is either rehashed MM, Gunwitch or Ross Jeffries/NLP.

This includes all of the companies like RSD, Love Systems, PUA Training etc etc. The only difference is that these methods, although utilising the same principles are simply communicated through different interpretations and worldviews, based on the instructor.

The real issue is this, that there was in fact at the beginning a seperation between Natural and PUA.

You really have to realise, there is no such thing as a pure natural, and there is no such thing as a pure PUA.

A pure natural would be like a prince, a comedian, an athlete, and a billionaire - someone whose upbringing has given them complete confidence and carelesness.

But we talk about as naturals, guys who have this confidence and carelessness with women, because they know this helps them get laid. We all learn and take in information through our life experience, and process this, and form our own beliefs. So called "naturals" have this confidence with women, but many of them are unsuccessful in other areas of life - in career, relationships, family, friends, passions etc.

Where I am coming from is, I was a natural before I found game. I always dated girls way out of my league, always had women in my life. All my friends are naturals, we are know in our city as the crew that you want to hang with, because we have so many women around us.

But when I came across game, and more specifically MM and NLP, my success accelerated PAST my crew of friends - I am now more confident at cold approach pickup than any natural I have met yet - and I have met a few! This whole idolization of these so called mythical "naturals" is just bullshit.

Yes, we copy attitudes, ideas, and behaviours from guys that learnt them from other sources, from guys that are having success with women - but we all learnt this somewhere! Whether it was through the seduction community, whether it was through our life experience, from our parents, from our friends, from a movie etc etc.

And I want to be clear, the crew of naturals that I roll with are very very good with women - in fact I would go as far as to say that as a group, they would absolutely trounce the entire lair in my city in terms of consistent results night after night with much higher quality women.

anyhow, I think it is important to understand a few more points:

- MM is perfect for guys who already think logically and analytically - the target market of an internet usegroup is people who spend much of their time online i.e. computer programmers, gamers, nerds etc.

- the OP bashing MM clearly doesnt understand it for what it is, and clearly has had some bad past experiences with socially uncalibrated fucks i.e. unnaturals MISINTERPRETING MM and being weird. I also have had these experiences, and open your mind, its not just MM, its any PUA method - RSD et al as well. How many times have you seen newbies obsessing over "state" or nimbus, or running around asking people if they like chicken and getting blown out of every set, and ruining the vibe in the club etc.

- MM never stated that the girl is of higher value than you intrinsically, but rather that the hottest girls have higher SITUATIONAL VALUE in the club.

- MM never stated you should insult a girl "neg hit" - it is a BACKHANDED COMPLIMENT - gentle teasing and flirting!

- I dont understand how a dedicated PUA could be afraid AT ALL of any so called natural in a club environment, come on guys you have the knowledge, the worldview, the tools and techniques to understand social situations IN DEPTH, and influence them to your benefit! Naturals dont have this, they just know how to get laid - they dont see the metaframe, for the most part. I am not afraid of any natural, any so-called amog in the club.

Does this mean I am a great PUA? no, no way. Does this mean I close 100% of the time? again, no way. But does this mean I see the metaframe and can out manouevre and out game most any guy in a club? Fuck yes it does.

Dont idolize naturals. Dont idolize anything. We need to come to maturity as a community, and start to realize that unless we honour, and build upon that which has come before (the original methods) then we will not progress even further up the mountain. We must build upon the foundation that has been laid before us.

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Take your Ops.

thats so retarded man. if you're born a natural, chances are you are fucking girls instead of browsing pua forum... isn't it what we are here for? learning the behavior of naturals and get their results.

p.s.MM works wonder, you say it creepy weird gay dehumanizing... people gets laid using it.

^^^ This is a perfect example of the attitude prevalent in the community that I am specifically talking about.

"Born a natural"?

As if a natural is some mythical creature? As if they have women on tap at all times and anything they say or do women are just all over them?

Get your head checked dude, snap out of it

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Take your Ops.

1) You say your here to learn the behavior of naturals but MM is the exact opposite of the behavior of naturals.

2) You say "people" are getting laid using it. Actually, most arnt. Are you?

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Yes, you are born a natural. Negative social conditioning, over time, covers up your natural core.

And yes, many "naturals" do have women on "tap." Its not that hard to have several women on call to fuck at any time..you just have to get out there and make it happen.
When coming from the right head space, you actually can pretty much say anything to them and them still be attracted to you.

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If you can get 9 and 10's with natural game , keep doing whatever you were doing ,
it doesnt work for me. I do MM on 9-10 and below 7(low-self esteem) and natural
game on 8 and 7.

MM on British/Australian and natural on Russian/German , no matter what i do
natural on British girls , unless they are drunk ,it doesnt work , i start with lower value
because of my nationality.

P.S: MM should be executed spontaneously , if your target senses your interest
before you open the set, better go direct.

Ok my intentions was never to register in this forum, but since checking out this thread I just had to.

Warpless illusion is just a kid trying to rationalise to himself why "rsd game" is "the best", thats why he creates thread saying "MM GAME SUCKS GUYS!!"


Ill tell you right now, that illusion guy dont know what the fuck he is talking about.

The MM WILL fuck you up (AS ALL METHODS) if you take it TOO LITTERALLY and overanalyze the SHIT out of it. You smartass, ANYONE who is normal in their fucking head can figure you that you should have a good time when you are out, like.. eh no shit?

Illusion tries to make it sound like if you are using MM, you are automaticly a robot walking around self consious of your fucking "alpha bodylanguage" or your "super opener" - idiot.

Ill tell you right now, when I started out with this shit, the summer of 2005 whne I was 18 years old I somehow had the luxure to have been sleeping with 5 kinda hot girls, I had a good social circle and friends, I was not by any means some kind of "natural", but I was not clueless.

However, I SUCKED at coldapproach, hell, I didnt even know I was entitled to approach.

When I found the game and MM, that was the ONLY system I knew, I saw it as some funny shit to try out, just some days out and I had my first ONS, the following months were fucking crazy, in a year I slept with about 30 girls (Yes hot ones, they usually are here in Sweden), the next year 40 girls, the 2 years following that I was in a LTR, broke up a year ago and this year Ive slept with 70 girls, Im going out 4-5times a week, a month ago I entered another LTR tho.

So a total of 140girls-something by starting out with MM, hows that for success you smartass?

All this fucking bullshit about "YOU ARE COMING FROM THE WRONG HEADSPACE MAAN!" - NO, only if you're focused on it, jesus fucking christ are u even out in the field? I got my self some openers, some negs to try out, some random story to tell, learned about qualification/compliance (This is HUGE if you want to become good at sniper game), comfort only using shit from my life, then I was DONE, time for field time.

No analysing, no sitting inside reading usless fucking posts about "MM SUCKS!" or "RSD IS THE BEZT OUT THERE", are u fucking kidding me?

This is how you get good at seduction:

1. Pick a fucking system
2. STICK TO IT
3. If you need it, use some routines, if not, fine
4. Go out, out out out out out out, 1 hour theory 100hour infield.

BAAAM you've got it.


Ill tell you right now, whats fucking you up is not the fact that you are DHVing, its the belief that you are COMING FROM A LOW VALUE PLACE IF YOU DHV, thats the kind of shit that RSD brainwash you with, they tell you "If you have to use DHV you are low value" - Give me a fucking BREAK. I spend time with "naturals" all days long (naturals btw, are HUGELY overrated), and guess what, they all ahve their own regular shit they do with girls, some stories they tell, some canned teasing and shit, SURE they are out having fun, but they very often have some kind of plan, some kind of stories they always tell etc.

Another funny thing to point out is that out of all my naturals, I am BY FAR the best at raw cold approach pickup, why? Because Im trained in it.

With MM ive learned GREAT social calibration, Ive learned story telling, Ive learned how to take over a group, how to hold the attention, how to be the social centre, how to make girls do things for me the most of you KJ idiots would only dream of while you're sitting inside whipping your fucking dick to mental masturbation about "outer game vs inner game" on a forum.

And please Illusion, just STOP all this "Its all social conditioning" "YOUR CORE" shit, it just STINKS RSD brainwash it aint even funny.

Everyone is NOT born to be alpha, thats FALSE. EVERYONE CAN NOT BE ALPHA, its evolutionary impossible. Evolution still goes on today, only because our genes have survived several generations thru history doesnt mean they will CONTINUE to survive if you dont take action and do something about it.


The qualification/compliance in MM is pure psychology and GOLD if you get good at it, its redicilousy effective.


Go in, ask some bullshit question while having a good time, tell the girl you want - to get the fuck out with a smirk on your face, tease her, ask the group if she is always that funny looking or whatever, tell her you like her eyes, especially the right one, she will laugh at this point, start to hit you, wrap her around your arms, tell her u love her, push her away tell her you brake up, spin her around, isolate her, start the compliance ladder, ask her questions, reward and punish, she will soon be programmed to please you, have a great time, kino escalate then get the hell out of there, fuck her.

Thats MM right there, mixed with "having a good time" and not "microanalysing". ALOT of my lays look similar to that one, very similar to MM or whatever, and it works GREAT.

ANYONE saying "MM DOESNT WORK" either:
1. Havent tried it out enough
2. Is a fucking KJ looser


Noow, ofcourse I could be a lying scumbag just trying to be cool at an internet forum, I dont really care what you think. Probably some guys who actually do have some skill in here will see what place Im coming from.



So whats my fucking point? MM will VERY OFTEN give a newbie confidence to start out, belief in himself to do stuff his "old me" wouldnt even dream off, by this comes experience, by experience comes internal confidence, by internal confidence comes a more "stable high" that doesnt rely that much on others.

YOU HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE, you cant just say "eehh naturals doesnt use dhv stories huhuh" Well guess what, "naturals" doesnt even care to write MM hating posts on an internet forum. Dont u fucking realize we're here because we are LEARNING the art of this shit? In some way EVERYTHING WE DO as males is to get pussy, biological fact.

I dont care if you are using "natural game" or whatever, by even LOGGING ON TO a pua forum you ARE indirectly doing this to get pussy - so per definition you already put the pussy on a pedistal.

ALL GOOD, no problems, who the fuck CARE anyway? The problem gentlemen, comes in when you start to hyperanalyze this fucking shit, "Am I doing THIS to get girls?? Is this ego confidence? Why am I doing this? Would an alpha do this? Do a real alpha even know what an alpha is? Is it alpha to talk about this??" GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. Read some shit, take what you like, go out to clubs and use it.

If you are social nerd, who cares, expose yourself to social situations, if you are using routines or not, I dont care, whatever gets you going.

MM will learn you how to playfully tease, how to flirt, how to change the frame to get the girl chasing you, it will learn you how to entertain groups and story tell (which are great skills in all of life), it will give you confidence.

Atleast thats what it did to me, without MM/Game I would probably be stuck with some ugly girlfriend today, working some shitty job thinking of getting kids or some shit like that.

Instead Im with a very beautiful and intelligent girl, going to college, will soon move to a very nice apartment in the center of the city, I have about 5-10 girls contacting me everyday who I know are up to fuck, I have girls spamming my fucking facebook flirting with me, I have a HUGE social circle (If you dont believe me, PM me and Ill give you my facebook name and u can see for yourself, trust me I know theres alot of KJs out there lying their pants off on internet).

ANYONE who is telling me that "MM is suxx!!" "MM doesnt work" Just looks like a fucking fraud in my eyes.

If you dont like MM, FINE, but dont bash it, because then you probably dont know wtf you are talking about.

My 50 cents, chill out.

LOL, nice DHV story bro.

It seems like your trying to convince yourself more than me.

Anyways...if my post piss someone off THAT much, like it has you...its because deep down, on some level, you know very well what im saying could very well be true. Its your insecurity and ego trying to protect yourself.

I find it funny that you, and others, hate me because of an opinion. Think about that... shows what kinda person you are. Hating someone because of an opinion... LOL. Haters gonna hate, and thats okay...you aint someone until you get hated on. (speaking of which, why dont I have my own thread on puahate yet? )

Hating on someone because of an opinion...yep, MM sure doesnt screw you up or anything...


Anyways, best of luck to ya bro.

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Never get broken up with again: the-addiction-formula-never-get-broken- ... 88794.html

Oh jesus fucking christ. "EEH NICE DHV STORY BRO"

1. Stop seing game everywhere you fucking faggot.
2. Its not about some shit "being true" or not, WHAT being true? are you for real? This is about PICKING UP CHICKS, u reaaallly think you gotta have the "best method" or some shit? Or that it can "be true that one method doesnt work" ?? Please get your ass out you virgin.

3. Stop all this NONSENSE about "ego protection" and "core issues", just STOP, you are massively brainwashed by RSD lingo and you dont even know it, pathetic.

4. "Haters gonna hate" ANOTHER RSD quote, I rest my fucking case.

Noow, can u please post 10-20pictures of you intimate with hotties? Just to validate your fucking opinion here? How could we take you seriously? You're a RSD fanboy, you bash MM in 343443 threads .. wait.. wait... and you get no girls? What a fucking coinsidence! You're just like the other 43000000 people on RSD nation (which have 3LRS in their front FR section, pretty funny when theres like 435454 people on that forum), spelling out bullshit with no validity.

Now please, go get a cookie.

LOL, you sure have a lot of pent up rage..not healthy but its ok, im sure you will work it out

Also, you keep talking about me being brainwashed by RSD... yet you seem to be hugging Mysterys nuts pretty tightly

Yes, Im an RSD fan, its admitted. A big part of my eairley success came from the personal guidence of some of the RSD guys so am I bais, sure..probably. Everyone has bias, its human nature. Am I brainwashed...lol...no. I dont even believe rsd is the best, just a great starting point.

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Never get broken up with again: the-addiction-formula-never-get-broken- ... 88794.html

God damnit just STOP that fucking "trying to amog on the internet" shit you faggot. "But its ok ok.. Im suure u will work it out " You surely look like a fucking pussy.

Hows your fucking reading skills? WHERE do I in some kind of way make mystery the only one true way? Have you even READ the shit I write you smartass?

Ofcourse you're a RSD fanboy, and what do they have in common? Very low successrate combined with acting like a bounce of fucking faggots at the club, no calibration skills what so ever.

Yeah so you tell me, how many girls have u fucked? How hot were they? SHOW ME your credibility to post useless shit about one method being loosy, SHOW ME - And please, just dont come with that "Eeh I dont need to prove my self to you.. I have no ego! Ive read tolle!"

Fucking 18year old kid.

GOOD DAY

This is pathetic...

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I am the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world, and I love it.

Evilvalle, dude you are pretty much bang on with this one, although of course getting frustrated and a bit loose probably not going to convince Warped of too much.

Warped, re: your reply to my post, give me a little benefit of the doubt. I am well aware of the natural style, living in the moment, saying whatever comes into your head blah blah blah, and when im drunk enough, I do employ that method (as Tyler D says in Transformations, alcohol can be good for pickup because it allows you to live in the moment) but I have naturals as friends and I can tell you THIS METHOD IS HIT AND MISS.

I know you enjoy pushing peoples buttons, and watching them squirm, and sure, it is fun at times. But what does it really achieve at the end of the day?

I mean, you post a controversial post on an online forum, and then when some individuals react to it, or even just disagree with you (on fair basis) you then start to berate them for being "reactive".....just seems kinda lame dude.

If anything, your original post was the big splash in the lake, and the rest just the ripples....to the point where I could even call your original post a bit trollish, if I didnt know how passionate you were about RSD and the difference it has made in your life, so I think fair is fair.

We could even have an open and honest discussion about the merits and downsides to different methods, perhaps for a newbie just getting into this and looking for a gameplan, or perhaps for someone a little more experienced wanting to change their game up.

Dont you think this would actually be a healthier contribution to the forum, and perhaps would be really helpful to a lot of people? I understand you have pretty good experience and credibility online here, so perhaps you might be able to post something up which could be pretty sweet.

And, all things considered an effort like that would most likely draw more people in towards RSD or similar style game (which has been such a great fit for you) in a really positive way, instead of this thread, which makes both RSD and MM look a little silly!

As far as my contribution goes, I tend to mix a few RSD "button pushes" in with MM style social dynamics, and SS style comfort and seduction techniques, so lots of variety, and always have fun. Ive gained heaps from watching or reading material from all the recognised MPUAs and companies, and most of the have made at least 1 or 2 very important contributions to the community as a whole.

In saying that, I do want to be clear that I think certain individuals must be recognised and respected for the contributions they have made - Mystery's influence is absolutely prevalent in every system out there - because he didnt just contribute his "Method" he practically invented, categorised, and recorded the entire framework of the way the seduction community now thinks about any social situation.

Tyler was trained by Mystery, and although you claim his RSD method is paradoxically opposite to MM, let me askk you some (rhetorical) questions:

- why does Tyler use Mystery's language and phrases in all his seminars? negs, HBs, running a set, 2 set, 3 set, opening, bitch shield, value, qualification and so forth...

- has Tyler ever directly criticised MM? Ever claimed it doesn't work? Ive never heard him do so......only his fanboys.

Its all about contributing value to the forum man....as fun as it may seem at the time, poking people with sticks and watching how they react is pretty pointless, and I think all of our time would be better served by doing something more constructive.

Oh and also, when you poke people with sticks? Sometimes they poke back

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Take your Ops.