I don't see anything wrong here, we're just doing the same thing women do to seduce us. But yea the world is all about manipulation to stand on top, even in workplace, it's not just in seduction.
I actually enjoy the game, because:
1. Improve your social skill, it doesn't stop at picking up women online, you will be able to apply some basic of PUA technique to interact with people.
2. I found it fun to watch how the girls react to every little thing that you do, i'm a science person, it's fun to learn how female brain works.
3. It makes you a better person, better understanding, more confident, more interesting person

my favourite way to meet a girl is by just introducing myself and after a few minutes of talking telling her i have no interest in a relationship. haven't had any problems yet.

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Even the most naturally gifted can learn to become better.

You can try ANY direct game method and you'll get exactly that.

Check out my thread on sexual attraction here: sexual-attraction-explained-in-depth-vt ... highlight=

And Chris Rex's thread on what he does here: fuck-girls-whenever-you-want-vt53022.html?highlight=

Check out GWM here: www.gunwitch.com

and 60 Years of Challenge here: 60s-anti-manifesto-must-read-vt72952.html?highlight= and here: www.60yearsofchallenge.com

You don't have to make a "less poon more guilt" kind of sacrifice at all. You have a shit ton of limiting beliefs from studying Mystery Method and I apologize to you about that on behalf of the PUA community. The truth is, the more honest you are, the more poon you can get.

You can even apply certain concepts from other PUAs to what you just said: "hey, I think youre really sexy. I want to fuck you and maybe if I like you we will end up having a relationship."

Vin DiCarlo has a kino escalation ladder based on building a momentum of kino compliance. You can base a compliance ladder on those exact words. Start off with "Hey, I think you're really sexy," and as you build more rapport and compliance you can eventually verbally escalate to "I want to fuck you" (Yes, you actually can. Don't let those limiting beliefs instilled by MM tell you otherwise). Eventually you can even say "Maybe if I like you we will end up having a relationship" (assuming that you're looking for a relationship in the first place).

Just stay away from that indirect game bullshit and your conscience will be clear and your balls will become steel.

maybe it is morally wrong, who gives a fuck? maybe it's morally wrong for girls to scam guys out of money/drinks/attention. maybe it's wrong for hot girls to walk all over men because they think they're the shit. pua tactics just even things out a bit. everybody gets their heart broke one time or another.

That's the kind of thinking that turns you into an immature and whiny vampire-lover.

If you're trying to learn pickup to "get even" or anything gay like that, GTFO

not saying i wanna "get even" in fact i'm saying guys should be LESS sensitive and upset about this stuff. people will use their advantages to get what they want, that's life.

Is it morally wrong? Not anymore than anything else most people do to get ahead in life and to get what they want.

We know being super nice and super honest all the time doesn't get you anywhere. This is just a survival tool like many others. We would all starve to death if we felt bad for all the animals and plants we eat to survive.

You have to ruffle a few feathers to get a head in life. There is no other way.

With that said... women rarely feel bad about hurting a man's feelings or telling him an out right lie. Thats something to keep in mind too. Most women have no problem being selfish. They wont feel bad about teasing you and eating free meals with your money.

So if she is looking out for herself.. who is looking out for you?

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Women are smarter than you think... but not as smart as THEY think

the questions you ask are just internal dramas you feel because u still dont feel worthy... i know im new and i know im young but i think this is one thing iv got my head around pretty air tight....

YOU like every other guy here, is amazing... you all have something going for you whether it be brains, humor etc. you might even have them all... but the problem you have and the reason your feeling the guilt after this is because you still dont feel like you deserve the girl being in your bed...

If a girl as gorgeous as the one you went out with came up to you and said "you are the hottest guy in the world, wanna get a room?"

youd turn around and say "where are the cameras?"

what you should say is... "i know, but im not that easy..."


now you said you feel like your manipulating them... the best piece of advice i was ever given in life not just pick up is ... "YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL YOURSELF"
if you crash and burn its on you... if you succeed its on you, or is it?
all your doing by using game on a girl is showing her that beneath wat she might right off superficially as being a geek, is actually an interesting guy who knows what a woman wants

now the biggest problem your gunna have is building the confidence to think and act naturally with this attitude... but when you do hit it... itll change your life, girls will be so attracted to your presence when you walk into a room that you wont need to think about gaming them... just be worried about them gaming you
peace

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no matter what, no matter when, no matter who... any man has a chance to sweep any woman off her feet; he just needs the right broom. - Hitch

Mystery Method is kind of the underhanded method that is very successful but does pose some moral questions. But it can easily be adapted to work for you in a more direct and honest way if you prefer that.

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Even the most naturally gifted can learn to become better.

The MM is not underhanded.

It is not intended to be, however underhanded people use it in their own way.

It is about as wrong as wearing a pushup bra.

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I'm not trying to be a dick Ezo, but you're being a Pick Up Snob in my opinion.

bbardot: you just reminded me about porn

is it morally wrong to want to have sex? do you have to be in love to have sex? No you dont i think the question should be: is it fair that we as pua have an unfair advantage over other guys? or is it fair that we can get above our own score? basically lets put it this way i rate myself around a 6/7 out of 10 why would i be lowering myself to date below that! i want to punch above my weight not below it.
as for below that they can stay in the friend zone!

i have heard a theory that is disturbing to me its a non pua theory on dating:
look in the mirror and rate yourself out of 10 now when you next go to a bar, go for girls that are 2 below your score theyll be so grateful for the attention they'll sleep with you!
THE PROBLEM TO ME IS WHY WOULD I WANT TO SLEEP WITH ANY GIRL THAT HAS A LOWER SCORE THEN ME!

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life sucks and then you die! deal with it

ok see i used to have those same feelings.. the problem is, is that it wasnt you, u said those things because some guy told u to to make things work, you werent being urself which is why u felt shitty... a big problem here is that many people follow someone else's lines, sure they work sometimes, but as soon as the situation changes a little they're screwed, or they don't feel accomplished because it was someone else who succeeded.

my point is don't try to copy someones else's lines or technique, jus be urself and honest, alot of the lines here work because it helps put our feelings into words, and if you don't want to get with her for whatever reason then don't, theres plenty of women out there

yeh, totally, i worded it badly, MM has the potential to be used in a very underhanded way where as most more upfront methods don't.

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Even the most naturally gifted can learn to become better.

That's happened to me two times before I started trying pua. The thing was I wasn't even trying to get with these two girls. Rarely ever saw them, but we talked a lot via MSN. And they were all over me. I did make out with them, but never had sex with them (even know i could). But I felt like shit anyway, for not making clear that this can't be anything serious. I'm still a very good friend with both of them.

If you're feeling like shit than you are a good person, a healthy person, who happened to make a mistake. You can make it right by not having sex with her and tell her what you really feel (that you feel really bad) and admit that you were trying to get her into bed. By doing this, you're not gonna be one of those bastards who fucks her and leaves her, and she'll respect your honesty and the fact that you care for her feelings and yours. You can end up being pretty good friends. That's what happened to me.

I also don't like the concept of MM...but I do like parts of it (the social dynamics part, some of the games are fun-Styles games are better-, and gambits things that you can do when you run out of things to say). All-in-all I'm more into self improvement stuff and the stuff that tells you what you should be looking for (body language of women, signs of interest).

And yes...I agree, some women are really manipulative. They use their looks and charm to seduce poor successful guys (with good lifes, but bad women skills), who then buy them drinks, let them into their homes, get married with them, write their entire property and wealth on their new wifes, and then they leave them taking everything and getting to the next victim. (this is the worst case scenario and it happens A LOT!) Usualy it ends at the point where the guy pay for everyting on a date and buys them stuff. But the problem is, that you rarely pick-up that kind of women and only that kind of women deserve to be fucked and dumped (get the taste of their own medicine). Most of the ladies don't.