I dont know about her past relationships but I get the sense you're dead on. She always has 3 or 4 dudes around her and one less attractive girlfriend. I called them her orbitors, and she tells me they are pathetic ass kissers.

Her reality and whats shes told me is all guys pretend to be nice at first to suck girls in, but are all the same. Dirtbags. I certainly came in with a different frame an didnt take her shit but always with the frame of ill drop my act when you do yours because I know your a sweet girl under it all which got me far for a while, i just didnt know when to turn it off.
Yep, she call other girls whore more than any other girl ive come in contact with. Seems like some repression issues there.
You are right, she already has opened up and told me some stuff about her parents divorcing and her moving from another state when se was young, and she said she didnt even tell most of her friends. Probably some issues there at play too.
Im more worried about my own head sraight at this point if I do land this girl and not screwing it up and becoming needy or jealous and blowing it than fucking and leavng her, cause Ive never got a chick this hot and seemingly confident and emotionally healthy. The closest one in attractiveness ive dated had self esteem issues and was no fun. The only way I can see i would get tired of her for while is if she kept up these games which she is yet to drop and testing me at the level she has. Never had any games/testing close to this. That would get old.

I think I get the gist and it sounds very applicable to real life. Kind of a yin yang type thing. Very ballanced.

Take it for what you will, but I would have plowed right through that text message of 'I overslept' with 'ok, come over now'. This girl is a flake, and flakes want you to take decisive action. Yes, its forward, but it leaves no doubt about your intentions and shows her that you can take charge.

And one of three things could come from it...

1) She says okay, and game is on.
2) She thinks you are joking and sends something weird back. That's where you send 'seriously, come over now. Call me in x amount of time when you are here'. She either comes or doesn't, you are done texting.
3) She doesn't respond.

Either way you went after what you wanted and called her out on her bs. If she doesn't repsond I just give up on this chick, as she seems like a bad apple. She may look like a 10 in your eyes, but her actions don't live up to a true 10, and I know I wouldn't want that. Chalk it up to her loss and stop playing her stupid games.

Pick up dogma pretty much says to do exactly what you described and to never act like a chump...I tried that frame for months, and was skeptical about dropping it ..., but there is obviously times you need to . This pick up and Kasabi have taught me that.

You might want to pay attention because that frame certainly didnt advance this pick up. All it got was high energy you vs me head butting with this girl that got us no where cause neither of us would budge for months. I told her to things like "cut the shit" about 20 times when she was giving me BS. I blew her off one night when I had had enough of the games, always I TOLD her to meet me places, (key here is told not asked i later learned), she finally she told me, when i learned how to ask properly I might. I had that frame on so hardcore I didnt even notice much less bend enough to ask her out even when she finally signaled me she would say yes.

Maybe that frame got me noticed originally because I was a nervous chump around this girl, but I think walking up with full belief in myself and being a good guy like I normally do with 7's would have got me to the same point I am no and honestly even a better one and saved me months.

Im still working to get it under control because I set this frame with her where she was the bitch and I was the jerk. Shes still acting like a bitch monster kasabi described, for instance today I called her she was a sweetheart when we set the date up because she went out of her way she was working around her plans and coming back early from out of town sunday just so I would have to rush friday. Soon as she relised she had dropped the "hard to get bitch mode" she told me to fuck off and that she wasnt going to go out with me and was serious. I just held firm and was nice and 5 minutes later it was back on.

Just keep an open mind.

Just suggested it as this has always been my frame in life, before I ever knew about pickup, and it has worked well.
Honestly, the 'headbutting' frame has different levels, and sometimes the best level is to switch it up and not even do it for a while. The key is to know when to use it, not to simply use it all the time. There is a definite difference between asserting yourself and going for what you want, and simply being a dick, but in all fairness the line can be thin. Only you can truly assess which side of the line you were on and how it affected your game.
That is fair and what I was alluding to in the last paragraph.
The thing is, personally, I would just never value a girl like this, and she may even be bipolar. From what you write she just doesn't seem like a 'decent' person, and I wouldn't go for her even if she was the hottest broad on the planet. I highly value respect, both what I give and receive, and a girl who would constantly blow me off, be a 'bitch' and make excuses would never get my respect and therefore no effort from me. You seem to be putting in so much into this one girl who just makes you feel worse as a human; its self depricating. And yes, all girls can do this to a degree, but there is a difference between girls who do it purposefully and those who do not.

I think the best advice is to simply stop caring about her, and that's what I would do, because I wouldn't want people like this around me. But you need to come to your own conclusion. I rarely get blown off (and I don't blow off others), but if I do I give ONE and only ONE more chance for them to redeem. After that a person is not worth my time and never thought about again. Figure out whether you value her pussy or your self respect more...

http://shakespeare.mit.edu/taming_shrew/full.html

Taming of the Shrew . . .

Everybody has their will. They have they own desires, fears, personalities . . .

Having said that, what happens when you walk around with a fat smile on your face? Anybody ever try this? . . . People smile back.

On the other hand, what happens when you tell everybody you see to "fuck off"? They tend to return the favor and tell you to "fuck off" as well.

People . . . they will always be who they are but to you, they can largely be what you make of them. With this modern rendition of "PUAdave's Taming of the Immature, Nervous Chick", it's easy to see that PUAdave played a large role in instigating crazy attitudes from this girl. She could have been tamed on day one. Is she in fact crazy? How can we possibly know? Things look like it's shaping up but so far, PUAdave has been just as crazy to this girl as she has been to him.

That is correct. I set this frame early, but actually the 1st time I tried to talk to the girl I really was just going over to say hi and be cool, and as soon as she saw me walking over to her she grabbed a guy next to her who looked shocked and hugged him before I could even utter a word and she just looked at me like fuck off loser. Pretty hard blow out I remember vividly because she is the hottest girl at this place and I was in the early stages of approaching. Granted im sure I had chump written all over me.

Fast forward a couple months and she walked by and I stopped her and was like Im Dave. Now this chick must have remembered something about me because she thought we had talked before and she was like you told me your name was tim. I saw this intrigued her so I went with and said some people call me Carl too, she walked away like what ever but it caught her attention. Next time I saw her out she gave me the finger playfully so I walked over and stuck it in her face and introduced myself as some other name and that was the start of this craziness. Crazy frame I set but I think it got me noticed and to stand out as a fun guy, I just did a poor job dialing it back when I needed.

Update time....... I'm so confused.

I finally got the date with the girl. She was cold and standoffish and hammered me with test the entire date, even called me weird at one point, which I took as a test and said yep sure am. Needless to say I got zero positive signals. Really wasn’t fun and I honestly thought driving her home she was just ready to get away from me and wasn’t interest. I dropped her off asked her if she wanted me to walk her to her door, she gave me some whatever type answer, so I was like fine didnt even bother thinking thats it. An hour later she’s was texting me talking about a relationship and what I was looking for. So Im like the girls still into me and had fun or at least I passed the test.

We talked every night this week and I thought we really hit it off and got to know each others had fun , and I really laid myself out there towards the end of the week and was like I think your special, we got potiental, all that you suggested putting it into a bf/gf frame. She remained firm on her frame, “I don’t like you yet” and “You need to try harder “ stuff like that but in my mind shes crazy about me because there’s no way someone would talk to someone hours and hours like we did.

Anway her Facebook said she liked picnics so I asked her on one really planned it hard too. When I picked her up I hugged her, and said something like at least I know we’re friends now, and she’s like “we’re not friends”. Given the history I blew that off and still I was a gentalman. I opened the door for her and all that nice guy stuff. The date was much the same as the first stand offish , test, only add onto to it, nothing was right with the food or my picnic planning and honestly I worked my ass off to make it romantic. I got a few laughs and positive stuff but tried to get closer to her on the blanket, she’d back away. Now in my mind Im thinking this girl is still crazy about me and this is a great picnic and it’s a test she doesn’t want me to think im doing to well see how I will react. Most positive I could think at the time.

So im relaxing we’re talking and after about 2 hours not really ready to go and she’s like im cold, I was like Ill give you my jackets and she’s like no im ready to leave. Ok. I drive her home, on the way she talked about “next time we go on a picnic she would bring the food” so I thought ok good sign, we’ll be going out again. So I drop her off and walk her to the door thinking kiss time. I look at her she’s not even facing me kind of standing with her back to me then turns kind of sideways so im just standing there like WTF and she puts her hand out to shake it. A fucking handshake and she said something like Ill probly see you later tonight, but she had told me earlier she wasn’t going out. Blow off.

?!?! So I go home maybe expecting a text or something to meet her that night, because she had done that after our 1st date and texted me in the past asking me if was going to be at the bar befoe, but got nothing and I didn’t even go to the bar to see if she was even there because I didn’t know how to handle it if she was.

So im lost and at this point im pretty frustrated with this girl. I dont care if she is a model or how much fun I had talking to her this week. Is it over? Will she ever shut off the games? Should I try to call her or see if she calls me? IDK. It's so frustrating because at times this week she did open up and was sweet but she insist shes a bitch and maybe she really is im starting to think. I can only think its a blow off right? The only thing I could have done differently was wen she stuck her hand out and pull her in and try to kiss her but when you try to do somthing nice and the chick craps on it the entire date says she doesnt like you and wont even face you at the end of the night and sticks her hand out its sure feels like a blow off. Hard to have belief and try something like that. Im lost. She gives me inviting i want to fuck you looks at the bar, I got zero when ive been out with her., infact its' a stay away vibe. WTF? She still told me this week she doesnt trust me and doesnt think im as nice as i let on. I couldnt have been any nicer to her even though all the BS she crapped on my hard work.

A little more background on this chick ive learned.

-she's 23 years old.

-had a 4 year what she called "on again off again" relationship

-Her dad left her mom when she was like 11, no relationship with him and he married a 19 year old when she was 16 has, 5 kids other kids now with her. Not much of a realationship with her mother or brother either. She said she didnt tell most of her friends this.

-paid her way through colleg and just got accepted to a presigious law school.

-still says shes a bitch and hates people. Enjoys blowing guys off, its entertaining.

-ran her roomate/best friend and only friend that is female into the ground several times saying she would bang anything, lazy etc. ,said she didnt like me, when I know the girl eyes me. Less attractive though. Vibe I got was she was still competitive with her though.

And this is what she told me this week before our 2nd date......

"I dont like you yet, i wont like u until I do. There are certain things I like and they arent things I see up front. I just wait because Im careful and I like to be responsable with my choices and trusting any guy that comes along isnt.

RUN!!!!! Stop wasting your time, tell me if you were getting fucked by 10 playboy bunnies everyday of the week, how much would this chick be on your mind? That's right, she wouldn't! Quality women don't act like this, she is afraid of commitment, emotionally resentful and doesn't speak to her family. Why the FUCK would you want her as a girlfriend?

No she didn't.
Hey, there's something to be said about this . . . This means that she's a worker. This means that if she applies her self, she can accomplish things. This is a very important quality.
Inaccurate. It probably pains her very much to "blow" people off. . . but she probably feels the need to experience this pain over and over again.
If she didn't "like you", NONE of this would be happening. This whole drama is being played out because she likes you.

Make up your mind. It's very easy for others to sit back and pass judgment on your situation but you've taken it this far because there is something compelling for you to stay. What the hell's up with you? Why are you so attracted to such a NUT? Why have you CHOSEN to keep her "nutty" for so long? It's as if you really, really are turned on by this melo-drama cheese just as she enjoys participating in it.

What is it that you want?

By the way, I now have this sick, twisted feeling that you probably share some physical traits with her dad.

I think you may be correct on this.

On the 1st date she asked me what my longest relationship was. She laughed when I told her, so remembering what you said, I said pretty confidently you know what, I don't think you've been in a long relationship either, and you know how I know this? By the way you've learned how to twist guys around couldn't do that with out practice. She honestly looked shocked and looked down and went into her head and squeeked out a couple of no's. It rattled her pretty good and she was shocked mouth open, only time on either date. It wasn't until the second date she brought up a 4 year on again off again relationship, and she offered it up, I didnt ask. So she could have lied pretty easy, otherwise why search in your head for something rather than offer it up on date one when I challenged her as combative as she aready was. I believe you on this.
I've told her from day one that was BS, and that I knew she was a sweet person. She insist otherwise.

I found out my father had cancer last week. I know she can be a caring person. I wasn't even going to bring it up but she picked up that something was wrong immediately. I excused myself from talking and the next day she text me a sweet message about checking in on me and hoping things were going better for me today. That's the kind of stuff that gave me hope maybe she would drop the BS and open up like you said and could be a supportive sweet girl.
That's what I kept telling myself and one reason I have continued to push this thing foward at this point through all this.
I think I can answer that pretty easy. She's sexy, flirty and fun, and twist me up like no girl ever has, but at this point it's starting to not be fun. I feel like the abused women that sticking around for more punishiment. It's like she'll open up some or be caring and it draws me back in and is a mega bitch.

Then there is this other feeling like this is a challenge ive been working on for months I need to finish if there is any hope. She's blown me off plenty of times and I keep recovering and eventually moving it foward and beyond what my friends ever thought. I really wanted to be with this girl but I also wanted to prove them wrong because they've called me sucker and a fool for continuing and say she's tooling me when I've told them about this stuff. Obviously I still want this girl, but now she's not even talking to me now. Her last words were I'll see you around as she stuck her hand out for a handshake on our 2nd date. I walked away obviously pretty pissed, I couldnt control it. Texted her a couple days later that I was confused and asked for an explaination but got no response and got none a couple days after that either.So I'm open to suggestions or what you think will happen at this point or what I should do to get this girl.

I'm also curious why she crapped so hard on my date, it was obvious I worked my ass off trying to make it a nice fun date. She really was disrespectful. The whole time I remained positive and nice thinking it was a test and she would eventually break and open up, but it never happened and in the end she had walked all over me and a gave me handshake on a second date, seriously and now she's not responding.

Why if she does like me? There was nothing on the date I did wrong. I really was a gentelman, and opened up big time, did and told her all kinds of chump crap like I thought she was special, beutiful etc. Then got crapped on.

Here are the answer to all your "why's" . . .

Because:

The MOMENT she fucks you, YOU WILL fuck off. She hasn't fucked you AND she's treated you like shit and you're still hanging around like some 9 year old in love with her home room teacher. Why the HELL would she change anything? She treats you like shit and you treat her like a queen. She's holding the V card and you're drooling for it.

Because:

You really will fuck off once she fucks you. You don't like her. . . You don't really, really like her. If you did, you would have grabbed, her, kissed her, and made her yours. What you really, really like is EXACTLY the way she is. You like the challenge, you like the melo-drama, you like the craziness. After you fuck her, ALL OF THIS will disappear and you'll be off to the next crazy ass chick who will offer you more of this crazy shit.

Because:

She's not the crazy here. YOU ARE. Go back, back, back to the beginning. What did we chat about back then? What happened to this point? There were plenty times when this girl put her foot forward for you. Sure, you made all the right excuses but every time she did this, you proactively reacted in a way that puts her STRAIGHT back to this chaotic state. WHY? WHY? WHY? I mean . . . this has gotten to the point where I'm frustrated for you . .

Here's the problem with the stereotype, "Go fuck another 10 girls" solution. The moment you shift to the next chick, I will tell you right now with 100% confidence that you will repeat this process over, over, and over again. Figure out why you love bullshit more than women. Admit it. Accept it. And then either make love to bullshit or make love to women. It's your choice.

Thank you kasbi. I needed to hear that.

Kasabi, what you said hit home hard and I've reflected today. She's actually told me before "you just like the drama, and your bull shit is so annoying. I think you have a problem". So hearing it from you is an eye opener especially when everyone else I've told about this pick up said shes got emotional problems and is crazy. Ive never dealt with a tease but this is something I certainly need to be aware of with me before it becomes a bigger problem.

I do want this girl and the last few weeks with your guidance I really think I've dropped the bull shit games and when I did, just like you said she came around I got the dates. I really havent been playing games anymore, I really dont know what I did wrong last weekend, but she's yet to drop the"bitchy" persona and open up even after I was nothing but a total nice guy and gentelman saturday. Am I ever going to be able to get past my past past antics being the nice guy now when I was the jerk, she couldnt trust before? I see what your sayin and why she keeps me where Im at. The question now is how to get past this.

You seem to indicate and I think you're right about the part about just grabbing her and kissing her. That's what she seems to be waiting or looking for, but how HOW man. She's always told me "she wouldnt help me" to get her but that's an SPAM. I've only had her alone 2 times and she puts up roadblocks at every turn, she's cold and stand offish, even a real bitch. I've never dealt with this. Even if I could ignore all that, u suck, Im not having fun stuff shes' thrown at me on our dates, and get the confidence to kiss her it's like she can sense im thinking about it or working up to it and pulls away like last week before I can even get postion. How do I make this happen with these circumstances, ive tried to be fun where she'd open up and make he self availible, but she wont even stand still infront of me long enough to give me the oppertunity hell she wouldnt even let me get close last week. I'll' probably only see her at the bar now, what kind of reaction could I expect if I just grabbed her and kissed her there?