Wow. You just said way more than the sum of those words. I'm sorry, dude, but we can't change you... we can only help YOU change if YOU are willing to change YOURSELF. Only you can decide to fix that attitude you have, and I really hope it works out for you when you decide to do it, honestly I do. But for now, it seems like this thread may just be a waste of time.

The only things I can add (or repeat... since it seems these have already been covered in subsequent posts) are:

1. "Let it go..." and
2. Not only CAN you change your behavior yourself, you MUST change your behavior yourself, and even first BELIEVE that you can change your behavior yourself.

If you want to change badly enough, and are willing to accept responsibility for your own metamorphosis and your own well-being, you will find a way. Maybe you'll come back to this thread someday with a different frame... because the advice IS all here; what isn't here is the will or the belief. All the best to ya, man.


P.S. It is great to read so many helpful inner-game-focused posts in one thread. You guys rule.

_________________
Live Your Truth.

This thread is starting to look like a "how to defend yourself from constructive critism 101"



Don't ask advice if you can't handle it.

Amen

Yes.

Both online and in person people just tend to take things way more defensively and to heart than i imagine getting all reactive on me when I don't feel I'm saying anything to get such a reaction.

I think part of this in person is my tonality which I could stand to work on a little bit and perhaps the tonality is effected when I feel certain things in my body so I guess I could try to work on my energy too.

At this point in my life I just wish there was something more simple and effective as this seems like a too late sort thing. I am who I am at this point. It would take years and years to correct this stuff.

I feel like an ambitious person with a lot of drive. I have the genes of a born leader. I belong to a family of entreprenuers and musicians. 80 percent of my life has been filled with friends, families, girlfriends, and social events.

Lately I have been traveling and having to adjust to meeting new people, living with people I don't know very well at all, and learning how to approach strangers. I've gotten pretty damn good at the approaching strangers part -- and I meet people who like me at work. My boss even said I'm a "good guy"

But I FEEL like I come off the wrong way towards some people because I feel there is some uptightness and anxieties deep down there. I could probably stand to "chill out" a bit.
Here's how I'm percieved. I will take a workplace as an example:

I go into work and some people talk to me while others don't.

SOme people are friendly while others look to test me and challenge me (I work in a restuarant) and see what I am going to be like, where my boundaries will be, ect.

I've thought a lot about it and I feel that in the workplace at least I am percieved as a good guy (The boss has even said so) who can come off the wrong way sometimes. People LOVE to test to see if I will do certain things sometimes, just to see if I will actually do it (to fuck with me)

I've actually gotten feedback from guys who watch what goes down, that I should stand up for myself more and put up with less shit.

I go into work environments very team orientated and professional. The whole focus was being nice, but it's hard to be nice to people when some of them are treating you like some sort of nerd or person to be manipulated just because your trying to be professional and productive at work.
I'm reading the link in this thread.
No. I just think at this point it may be easier to just become a successful asshole than a flawless alpha male.
Could you explain to me then how an alpha male would behave in this thread? I bet you can't. You see your theory is that if I am an alpha male that I would never have posted this thread in the first place right?

So this is a mute point. You guys don't have the reference experiences with me to understand much right now. All you understand is this thread. It's your entire reference of me. So I'm not going to continue with this stupid debate to categorize if I am alpha or beta or what. I just called the debate stupid. Does that make me an asshole? Yes?? OK GOOD!!


You guys explain to me how an alpha would deal with the things I have brought up and how he would handle himself in this thread. Teach me. You don't -- because it's funner just to drop in here like the cool guy and make a funny. Well congrats man. Your special. You can bust on a dude who posted a thread already busting on HIMSELF. lol. C'mon guys seriously??

I care about almost everyone. They are people. It's hard for me to totally shut out and ignore someone no matter how ridiculous they are.
Thanks man. I will do that. I worry that all the psychology based communication books will be wrong though, as the community says how these mainstream books are wrong. I use to read them all the time. i read 'how to win friends and influence people' and most of that advice seems to be trashed by the community in favor of more "sex appealing" behavior. I also feel that "trying to be alpha" is try hard. You've given me SOMETHING to look into though, and I will. Thanks. If you ever need help pm me, I know my shit well when it comes to pickup.

1. You've identified your problem; anxiety and insecurity. That's where you need to get to work, fixing your tonality and energy level is something completely different and if it is a problem it will fix itself when you fix your insecurity.

2. Leader is a social position not a genetic trait. You are not popular so at this particular time you are not a leader or alpha. Leader/Alpha/Beta It's all relative to your social status; However there are traits of people who have good self esteem and are used to being in a natural position of leadership.

3. What kind of shit are you getting? And I will point out no one tests the cool confident guy, there is no need to test him, he's proven by walking into the fucking room.

4. Easily First of all he would have listened to the advice at hand, rather than getting endlessly upset. Then, he probably would not get so offended when people make a necessary negative remark about his personality. (You seem very confused on this point, you are aware that something is wrong, yet when someone points out what it is, you immiediatly defend yourself and disagree with these assesments)

He would actually bust on himself to get better; you haven't done any of that. You've just said people don't like me; then everytime someone tells you why, you defend yourself and try to disagree with there reason. You seem to want to believe the reason people don't like you is something other than the real "you".

5. Which leads me straight on to my next point which Kasabi focused on... did you understand the part about the note?

Simply put, few people like you, even on this forum (which is normally a really welcoming and warm forum) you have garnered almost zero sympathy.

And yet you're claiming that you are actually a good guy and list reasons why people should like you. But the evidence speaks otherwise. It's like the guy who goes "I'm actually regardless of what people think very attractive and skilled with women" yet it has been months since his last lay. The evidence of it being months since his last lay shows that he is obviously not that attractive and not that skilled with women.

And his self decleration means nothing when faced with the mountain of evidence that opposes him.

6. What material have you actually been reading; mystery method? How to win friends and influence people is a fantastic book and goes in line with 90% of the community

Any suggestions? I just don't want to turn into one of those oblivious positive dudes who has no boundaries and people walk all over. A lot of my anxieties and insecurities come from trying to control things that other people do because in learning pickup community theory I have learned that you must come off a certain way to be attractive and respected.
True but different environments lend to different roles. No matter how hard I try to do the right thing, be a team player, and lead by example for instance -- at work I am defined as beta. This is because their are people in more powerful influential positions than I am such as bosses, managers, bartenders, and cooks. People with longer tenure also have an advantage.

Put me in a club or a mall though and I can very easily lead situations and be one of the most social people around. Totally different situation.

Move me into an apartment with new people I don't know who have developed strong relationships with eachother and again I'm at a disadvantage.

So it's not really as simple as "right now your not alpha or popular" it is more of a situational basis. When I was the leader of my social circle and did things like knock out a guy who hit a girl -- I was alpha -- both in the situation and in the environment. That's why I don't like these beta alpha definitions. It's all pretty much situational and a matter of perception.
This is true too and again situational. The "cool" guy is the guy in a situation who has established himself as so. He probably has some sort of power within the situation (a bouncer at a club or an established worker at a workplace) and also for anyone who has stepped up and challenged him he has put that person in his place and established dominance.

Now you tell me -- how does this correlate with being a nice person no matter what, never percieving a threat (thus being defensive) and just never letting anything get to you?

The alpha wolf in a pack must constantly defend against a takeover and prove himself here and there to maintain power. The cool guy has shown that it does not pay to cross him. That's why people don't.

So how does worrying about not being an asshole and coming off "sweet" and "nice" to everyone correlate with this??


4. Hmmm. I was pretty sure that a big element of a beta male is that they constantly accept other peoples realities and have no reality or opinions on things. That they are followers and sheep who just accept whatever is projected onto them. Yes your right. I guess I am confused.
What note? What I understand is that he has correctly identified that I have an unhealthy disconnect with people going on that probably manifests itself in a few different subtle ways that people pick up on. Other than that I'm unclear.
False.

, I can agree with this.
I don't really care if you guys like me at this point, but I appreciate the attention that has been brought to my problem. I'm just trying to clarify and give facts in case there is someone out there that is actually listening enough and trusting me to know myself better than they do so that they may give me some good advice. Some people have done that and those are the ones I reply to.


Im willing to put 500 bucks on the fact that I've had more sex than you have.
If I talk to girls I get laid.
lol. You don't have to believe me man. That's fine. lol.


I use to be big on the method but have evolved past it and hold it responsible for some of these messed up mindsets causing me problems now.
It IS a fantastic book but lacks a lot of street smarts and does NOT in any way teach ATTRACTION.

Wasn't it obvious?

So I guess then that this post is an example of YOU being an asshole?? lol.

If by asshole you mean that I don't appreciate people who project negativity onto me or try to take advantage of me over and over again then yes -- I'm an asshole.

If anyone wants to give me any advice on how to be more congruent with who I am now or how to become less of an asshole without having people walking all over me then I'm game for it. Other than that I think all that has been said has been said.

1. Know your boundries, and know what you do when they have been crossed. If someone insults you about something that you are a sensitive about. Speak to them about it, if they continue to mouth off, do something to have them removed, speak to an authority (your boss in the work place) or if there is no one to turn to ignore him, or if that isn't an option just walk away.

2. HAHAHA! "I knocked out a guy who hit a girl; I was alpha"... THAT'S your alpha? Look around the world, the world of MEN not boys.... maybe you'll realise why that's such a ridiculous statement.

---------
Hint: Violence is rarely alpha!
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How are you special as a leader? Of course it's hard breaking into a new place, but it's more stressful than it is difficult. There have been hundreds of leaders who have had to lead people who they had never met, how are you the one "leader" that I have spoken to, who seems to have trouble with encountering new social systems?

3. I turned up at uni about 6 Months ago, I've met plenty of people, and I have only had myself deliberatly tested once!

4. ALPHA HUMANS, we are completely different animals to wolves and as such the way we pick* leaders is tottaly different. The Alpha Male of the wolves is the biggest baddest meanest mother fucker of the pack, quick to move to aggression, usually physically alot bigger and maintains his status through threats of (and actions of) violence directed at possible challengers.

*Note the word PICK is important.

The Leader in humans is generally characterised by popularity, good communication skills, and in social situations is usually the one thinking about the good of the group.

In Humans in a social setting, such as a bar or a social circle, the leader is not selected on the grounds of his ability to throw insults, or his aggressiveness or his willingness to compete or the fact that he can fart louder than his peers. As such in those settings the leader is the leader becuase people like him and want to be with him. He doesn't necessarily have power, if he was to make a decision like, everyone hand me £10 so I can buy myself some drinks and get a limo home. The group says "no"; and if he continued that behaviour his popularity would fall and within three weeks or so he's no longer the leader, he's now the outsider.

Why is this something to mark? My current theory is that your problems are stemming from your insecurities and your model of how you "should" act, which is a very flawed and distorted idea of an "alpha male".

5. And yes and no, a huge part of being alpha is accepting responsibility for failure, you are here to learn, do you think an alpha goes to a boxing class then when the instructor says, "You're dropping your gaurd stopping doing that!" rather than show the maturity and confidence required to admitt that he is wrong and adjust he "Holds his frame" that he is absolutly correct, regardless of the fact that he is getting knocked on his ass 24/7.

Learning from someone else and listening to anothers opinion is tottaly different to dropping frame and with-holding your opinion.

6. Why are you even attempting to compete with me; you are most likely never going to meet me, I'm just a guy on the net, I have no significance in your life? Why are you trying to prove yourself?

7. You have mis-understood kasabi's point. Kasabi's point is that when people don't like you there is a reason, saying your a nice guy when people clearly don't think so, and when you repeatedly demonstrate to the world that your "a nice guy" is contradictory and taking account of the evidence, the option: "People are right you are a dick" looks like a pretty water-tight case.

8. The book is a great tool for dealing with rapport and ensuring that you get immiediate investment out of people you talk to, which is to of the more trickier subjects in PU frankly, not attraction by any length.

Awesome. This is the kind of advice I was looking for. I posted a post that I come off the wrong way towards people and most of the feedback I get is "That's because you come off the wrong way towards people". Well DUH.

My struggle with boundaries is between being somewhat authentic and humble about it (which some people find weak and feminine), ignoring it (which doesn't stop bully-like behavior), or dealing with it the way the pu community advocates which is basically to have a better comeback that also shows you could care less about their bs. An example of this is agree and absurdify.

So if instead of pleading my case with you guys I had origionally been like:

"Yeah I'm totally an asshole. I once tied a rope to a mans penis and left him hanging from a tree" then you all probably would have respected me better.
Actually the full story is that the guy not only hit her, but he had a large knife and had smashed her head into the tar. I chased after him, got him away from her and then knocked him out while he took swipes at me with the knife. The police came and I was a hero. I took leadership and took action instead of standing by like everyone else. Is this alpha or just plain stupid? Doesn't matter. I was just trying to explain that I'm not the kind of person who likes to be helpless in situations and not have my say in matters.
Ok here I am guessing your point is that "Your not as great a leader as you think you are" and to that i would say "I would like to become a better leader, it's a passion of mine -- what advice can you give me to attain this"
This is a different environment than a restaurant in a bad economy with many people unemployed and fearful for their jobs. However I won't say that I don't think that is awesome that it worked out well for you. I don't believe that you were only tested once but I have met people like you who say things like this and usually it's guys who just have no focus of reality or awareness towards the little tests that people pull. They don't even notice it. Clearly I have stronger boundaries and awareness of this stuff. Regardless man that's great.
True. Good point.
Ok.
Ok.

Probably though it could just become a fun running joke and just boost his standing.

I agree with you but don't know how to fix it. This is what I keep trying to explain that no one seems to pick up on. My way of fixing this is to just let everybody say and do whatever they want towards me no matter how toxic and just hold it inside and try to be positive and this does not stop bad behavior towards me or stop people from trouncing my boundaries, or make people trust me, or make people respect me.

I agree but again I will say that I said "I come off the wrong way towards people and some of them don't like me what can I do to fix this" and most of the advice is "Well you come off the wrong way so you have to stop coming off the wrong way"

This doesn't help.

, I need some idea's on what to do as an alternative to dropping my guard that won't get me knocked out -- but I keep getting mostly people just telling me not to drop my guard. That's the problem.
A case for what?? I already admitted in the thread topic that I come off the wrong way towards people. lol. I didn't need you guys to agree with me on that. I was looking for solutions.

One last time I will try to explain:

The only alternative to who I am that I know is to act very beta and apoligetic and nice and just try to please everyone else and not get in their way and not call people on shit and walk on eggshells.

1. THAT'S THE ADVICE YOU WANT!

You need alot more work than you think, I'm sitting here trying to distill down what is your actual problem so we can fix that, and your looking for a band aid. A quick set of rules that you can flip through when social situations get to stressful for you to tell you what to do.

Do some fishing in the inner game section, your problems are there becuase you have a bunch of baggage which is skewing your world view. Fix that and I promise you you'll be much better of for it!

2. I could find you people where that's almost a weekly occurance (which frightens me more than you think )

And no one likes to feel help-less! And were you injured from a martial arts perspective that's a huge statistical anomaly to KO to dude with a knife without injury.

3. Learn to influence, learn to deal with negativity WITHOUT firing back with negativity, it sounds tough I know, but socially it works so much better, much more attractive and it's much easier on your head.

4. I just smile when I meet someone, joke with them, laugh with them talk to them and it works out fine.

Do you want to give a list of these challanges which I didn't notice

5. Your missing in the point, if leader starts doing shit which causes him to fall out of favour, the group will ignore him and stop seeing him as a leader. Simply put the leader only has power within the context of what the group wants to do!

6. It's really hard to dissect WHAT you are actually doing, you can surprisingly get to grips with who someone is very fast but what they actually do can be another thing. As I've said your whole world view of people doesn't seem to be a ideal one for a leader or for anyone who wants to be liked. That has to be changed through some inner game amterial and focusing your time while you are socialising on changing your percpetion of the social dynamics in play.

7. Are you looking for an explanation of how to be alpha without being a dickhead?

I am looking for:

1) How to be alpha without being a dickhead or projecting a negative energy. OR how to just not care and be completely hilarious and absurd towards anyone who tries to project me as a dickhead so that they just accept me for who I am and like being around me.

2) How to not care about what people think while still putting them in their place in a way that's fun for them, especially since many girls and dudes alike seem to appreciate this style of back and forth communication. I'm pretty descent with it but too often it actually ends up being a step back in our relationship rather than a step forward. I need to water things down a bit more I think.

3) Things I can do in the first place to not cause people to project negative behaviors onto me. What it is I may be doing to ASK for this sort of thing out of the gate even though I accept people at face value at first I guess I don't do enough to project that I am someone they should take seriously or try to befriend.

4) Any recommendated reading in these area's.

My father and mother had a disfunctional relationship and it was violent. When I was 2 years old my mother took me out of the house in the middle of the night after a violent fight.

My mother remarried and my new father (who I consider my father and have never talked to my biological father) gone running his business or on tour. When we would interact it would often be because of conflict between my mother and me. My mother was very overbearing and toxic. One of the ways she would grow closer with my father is in unifying him with her against me as I was growing up. To top it off my father never taught me about boundaries or how to handle myself. My father always would just avoid conflict and walk away. If my mom would start in on him he would hide out in the barn and drink beers.

Since I had no real place to turn I spent a lot of time with my sisters growing up, playing with them. Again no real masculine influence.

When I met cool kids in 5th grade I started to hang out with them. For the first time I was able to learn what it is to be a man. I got in with the wrong crowd though and we started partying and drinking. I dropped all my activities like martial arts, swimming, football ect. I became the social hub of partyville in highschool and college before settling down with an HB8 for several years who was attracted to me as the alpha male.

After enough time passed and we had moved away and were cut off from enough friendships and just had eachother -- and after several career failures of mine we grew apart and I was back on the market. This is when I got into the pickup movement and have had various ONS and manipulative relationships since. None have become serious relationships.

I travel around now to new places which gives me some anxieties. At work I try to just focus on my job. I see people as potential harm and don't fully trust them but I always start out by viewing someone as a good person. The minute they start to harm me the floodgates open and I start to rely on things I have learned in the community to try to help me or I submit to them and make myself vulnerable to try to get them to accept me or I just ignore everything and try to pretend our relationship is fine.

Are you willing to accept that perhaps you don't come off the wrong way, but you actually have character flaws or that there are parts of you that are not so nice? Are you willing to accept that perhaps there is nothing you can say to fix this, no magic trick you can learn, no miscommunication that's happening, but there is actually something in you unrelated to these things that needs fixing? Are you willing to accept that it might actually take a very long time? And that you will not be fixing your communication, your hair, your alphaness, who your friends are, but your way of thinking, beliefs, and how you perceive the world?