^Sarging advice from a guy who's approached ZERO times in his life is about as relevant as stock market tip from a monkey. Trixta, I thought you HATED sarging. What's you interest here?

I'm pleased with all the replies to I'm going to make the effort to try and acknowledge them, though I won't be able to be thorough in my appraisal; forgive me.

Marc -

thanks mate. Your advice pretty much reflected that of AFC Adam's in Jav's video (to an eerily precise extent). Sound stuff.

The dancing monkey thing on the dance floor - yeah I guess, could be, could be. Something to watch out for in the future. I don't usually get my moves out as I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to PU, but, I had locked into a big mixed set who kept cheering me on and making me dance lollers it was fun (and funny). Some dude did a backflip though. I've got to get that down.
Yeah, you may well be right. In this case, she did come to watch me, but I had basically the whole bar...maybe 50-100 people circled round me so I don't think she had much of a choice. For once she wasn't the focus of attention . As you and other pointed out though, this may not always be ideal.

Kasabi

That Indian dude sounds hot. If I was bisexual, I'd ask you to hook me up. You raised some interesting points that others have not, though. I did not look at it from that angle - that she may well perceive me as the highest value guy in the venue, but the highest value guy in the venue is just the highest value guy in the venue - not the guy who she feels compelled to.
.

I'd be inclined to disagree and agree with this. Disagree because the point about these top dogs is that theoretically, and at face value, you cannot offer more value into their lives. As far as they are concerned, they have maximum value and any attempt of other people to enter that will just diminish their value, or 'cramp their style'. They are already hot, they already have 10 other hot guys, 10 other rich guys, 10 other anything guys following them around everywhere, etc etc.

At the same time, ANY approach that works clearly has to offer value - and that's where AFC Adam's negative attraction (the video that Jav sent) is so prime. So prime.


This is pretty interesting. Good advice, too. I'll look into it more. Yeah, that's a good idea to take away her "bargaining chip" as it were. The problem is with these top dogs is that you can't really do that - any attempt would be doomed to failure, because she will know you still want her pussy and that's the only reason you're talking to her, and even, for the sake of argument if this wasn't the case - she still wouldn't believe you. The idea is prime; but I cannot off the top of my head think of a specific way to implement it.
Hehee. I like the reference to the collective, because I have a lot to offer in most departments of life, aside from PU; again, AFC Adam had a good section on this in his video. As you go out and sarge loads you develop a lot of great connections that help you offer value to other people's lives. A top dog don't give a shit though.

Still, these girls often have weaknesses, or goofy/dorky/dirty habits. One just has to spot them. Many of them have also been hurt in the past. I too have dated very hot girls. (Actually 'dated' isn't the right word...).

You made some interesting points though, I'll have to read over what you said a few more times to understand it fully and see how I can use it.
Good point. I think you guys have hit on something - value, as such, isn't that important for this type of girl. She can ALREADY get the highest value guy on earth. If anything, it helps me get a clean approach on her, but nothing much more. In fact, it probably makes rejecting me all the sweeter because it gives her a rare ego boost (normal rejections are just chores).

Hobbit -

Yep^^. I was referring to the general case, with an example. Well, some people have more experience in field but it's nice of him to offer his thoughts. Always welcome. As Style and Mystery say, "it's always your fault." (Referring to the PUA).

Reo -
Would have to disagree with you there mate. A good PUA for me does exactly the opposite of what you said - that is, pick up the girls who are not interested in him from the starting position. Then again, when you have sound inner game, a tight frame and concrete mindset, all this interest crap blurs away and everyone loves you and you love everyone...this is what I find.

Madals -
Could well be the case. It can work against me as you said (could cause ASD), unless I create a movie - a scenario where we can both mutually raise our values in front of everyone else. I've done this before and pulled right in front of everyone staring. But it's not easy.

Again, good point with the distinction between value. Hadn't thought of that. Could well be an idea.
She did notice me first. Looking back, I guess she was jealous that I was the centre of attention rather than her. This was before I started dancing. She gave me strong EC, I thought it was a certain lay from there. She would never come over. A top dog will never come over to your set like that, let alone buy into your frame like that. These girls are not just 9s, but 9s with a mission, and that mission is to fuck every guy and girl over royally.

This goes back to the misunderstanding of "value". You've just gauged value on a 0 to 10 linear scale.

The sense of value that those girls have presented to you is a facade that only exists IN THAT CLUB on THAT NIGHT. You have accepted it and now you're tempted to demonstrate your value in their realm. Thus . . . the simple answer here would be "YOU CAN'T demonstrate any further value." - Unless of course you look better than her in a mini-skirt.

Her's a quick exchange with a Japanese girl at a club last weekend and she hasn't stopped texting me since:

After introducing her and her friend to my friends:

K: A is going back to Hong Kong next week. He's had a sabbatical of sorts in the US and now it's back to the lifestyles of the rich and the famous."

JG: Blah, blah, blah

K: That's right B and C! You guys are going to HK next month aren't you? I might be going to see a client. Let's plan.

JG: Blah, blah, blah

K: You should join us.(At JG) Continue this party in Hong Kong!

JG: Do you always invite strangers to Hong Kong?

K: Just being nice. . . and HK is fun as hell. Hey, I gotta go say hello to a buddy who just walked in.

Meanwhile, I see one of my other buddies take the JG to the dance floor leaving her friend behind. She's about to come off of the dance floor and another buddy of mine grabs her . . . I take her friend to the floor and see that my buddy is basically mauling her.

Back at the table:

K: Meet the best criminal lawyer in town.(The guy who walked in later)
Lawyer friend: No, I just work the cases nobody wants.

JG: Blah, blah, blah.

K: (Talking to the lawyer) So you going to NY next weekend or what?
Lawyer: Yeah, you going? Big party . . .

JG: Blah, blah, blah.

K: You wanna go? Do you have a place you can stay in NY?
JG: No, do you?

K: Yeah, but I don't really know you yet.

JG: Blah, blah, blah . . .

K: Hey, ____ just texted from the _____ club. He's got a table. Let's move.

Guess who's holding my arm tight to be "part of the club", so she can "move on" with us? I've just turned the "hot club" of the night into a tiny little pond. Her entrance into my life is an instant life. It's instant fun. Everything is set up: Parties, professional friends, International travel.

The reality is that the furthest this country bumpkin in high heels will be traveling will probably to a local movie theater to see a movie shot in Hong Kong. Perception is more powerful than reality. That little club where she goes every other weekend to make the 10, 10, 10 (rich, good looking, drooling guys) eye ball her to death is a B-O-R-I-N-G dead end for her and she knows it.

Could you kindly post the link to this video. Except for the 'Game' and posts in this forum I havent really read or watched a lot of stuff which sometimes could be a bad thing but again that is probably also why I could have no prejudices and discover these things as I go along.

Actually, when you date a few 'type' of girls you start figuring it out. Its a natural human process, you dont have to be an MPUA for this.
Your perception of what they have an importance/consider value in their life but its not the reality. In my experience a lot of these girls have NOTHING much going on in their lives that they are EXTREMELY happy with. They are searching for something, could be anything, and if you can figure that out and bring that to the table (not just give it to her but show her that she has to earn it from you) then now you are 'adding value' to her LIFE, now you have something that she wants to earn-Could be LOVE, Could be Comfort, Could be Luxury, Could be Connections, Could be Family anything... And again in my experience most of these TopDogs are looking for comfort(and I mean a comforting figure around them that are anchors in their life). But again I am just speaking from my experience.

I was at a party a few days back in which I met a lawyer. She as smoking hot and was with another guy. I was speaking with everyone and at one point she approached/made a comment and we started flirting and then chatting. She told me how she found it very tough to be friend's with girls, had no girl friends in law school yada yada. Without getting into the details I'd Say that the point is, she could be smoking hot and successful but doesnt mean that she has it all together !!

To you case, Mate you know so many things, things about NLP, had fair deal of experiences with women and girls I'd believe - So you have a lot to offer to these girls. If you only figure out to package your knowledge and present it part by part in a way to these topdogs in a noisy, loud club environment and then to the first date and then 2nd date, You WOULD BE GOLDEN.

I think the 3 of you (Hobbit, Kasabi & Marc) all said or hinted towards the same point and I totally agree with you. And that is that I must look beyond the conventional or superficial definition of value - with this flawed definition (albeit often accurate for most nightgame situations), the top dog is just that - the top dog. When all else is taken into account, often these girls actually are pretty upset with their lives.

This is because there is a cognitive dissonance - they themselves are evidently so high value, but their lives do not match up to this. This, and choded out losers cause them to be pissed at the world. And this, as Kasabi's example of the Japanese girl demonstrates, is where the skilled PUA comes in.

This is quality stuff. I'm out tonight so won't be able to post...and out for most of tomorrow. You've all helped a lot so please give me some time now to put all this together and post some sort of skeleton of a strategy, which of course, we can all imbue with our own style and personality.

Marc, the video is on the second or third post of this topic by Jav. It's an absolutely quality video and you'll be surprised how aligned your thoughts are with Adam's. It's all very well for me to be able to hypnotise girls, but loud bar/club type SPAM are where NLP & hypnosis lose their power. Besides, you know me, I need to be able to pick up every girl in every situation, and so far this situation has evaded me...but no more . Can't wait to get out and use all of this in the field.

Thanks all again.

xx

It's not sarging advice, it's a simple fact that people overlook in any sport/situation.

Just because I rarely approach doesn't mean I hate or don't approach. I'm thinking of going out on my own with the primary purpose to sarge sometime next week because then I'll be forced to approach and make new friends.

The dancing quite possibly ruined it for you. Before that, you had exclusive mysterious value. Once you started dancing, you literally became a dancing monkey - sure you were a dancing monkey that everyone loved, but you were still entertainment.
I disagree, if you are the leader of a VIP group your the highest of the high value you get in a club. Telling her she can come if she brings a good story is a slight neg and also implies you have interesting things to say (but she doesn't know what, adding to the mystery even more).

Humans are curious - if you make her curious as to why you are so high value (by making the value less in your face) she is going to want to come over for two reasons: 1) Because your attractive and 2) because she can't work out why you are!

Back to the dancing, think of it like this:
A rich man doesn't need to say he is rich. Your dancing was like throwing £50 notes into the air.

Just wanted to say that this is a very good discussion with a lot of relevant information. In regards to AFC Adam's video that was posted, I have unknowingly gone that 'negative attraction' route and it has worked with prime girls. Never really thought about the 1 or 2 times that I had done it and why it seemed to work, but having it explained was certainly eye opening.

Blame who? Blame what? Why? Who's hurt? Effect you? Me? WTF are you talking about?

You've interpreted the experience of "one guy that you know" to fit with your paradigm. This doesn't help you nor does it add anything to this discussion. You don't sarge because you're afraid of hurting your little pride... Then, 1. You deny this. 2. You fabricate every possible reason why not sarging and not picking up and not doing ANYTHING is logical and reasonable.

There are many dynamic factors at play when two people meet; it's never the same experience twice. . . .and yes, you've got that right. However, you've used this reality to dissonance reduce your lack of action. Instead, consider using this reality to do what you can to increase opportunities. EVERYTHING in pick up is strategizing for what you call "outside factors". . . In fact, any girl you meet is an "outside factor".

Blaming yourself leads nowhere. On the other hand, blaming "outside factors" leads you to say some really stupid things . . . "She's a bitch. I wouldn't want to date her anyways. She's probably too mature. (yeah, I still remember that one) She's a 10 so . . . ." . . . then you're still back to NOWHERE.

This is one of the best threads I've seen recently because of its progression. Rafiel stated a goal, his current methods, "outside factors", and his issues. Posters chimed in with analysis and suggestions. Then Rafiel actually summarized the posts as if he just finished a business strategy meeting! Now action! . . . It's perfect.

Now . . . what happens if he falls FLAT ON HIS FACE? Hmm. . . how about coming back and stating a goal, current methods, "outside factors", issues, and re-strategizing?

^^This is the method of progression, not only in PU, but for EVERYTHING in life. Trixta, read this thread over a few times and follow Raiel's example. ^^This ability is the goal. Get here, and everything flows.

Good insight Kasabi. To me it looks as though you made yourself seem very high value while coming off all nonchelaunt, as if its everyday stuff. But wouldn't you need a lot of money to actually do stuff like this? Flying internationally, knowing all kinds of people... You actually do need to be high status (money, and knowing all kinds of people)

Last night I opened this girl who is what you call a campus-celebrity. I already knew who she was, she didn't know who I was. Believe it or not, she is in the top sorority on campus, Miss _insert state here_ 2010, a 5'10'' brazilian model with the face and body of a... model. She used to date the former #1 college basketball player last year who then became the #1 draft pick to the NBA (if you know basketball, this is obvious)

Okay so basically shes very high value and was sitting at the bar with two of her girlfriends looking bored as hell. I didn't believe it was her, since I could only see her from behind..but then she turns her head and I approach ASAP. I open her by saying something like "hey you look like a Cheetah, RAWR", she was wearing a very skimpy cheetah print top. We chatted for a bit.. but the thing is. When I opened her, i was scared SHITLESS. I knew i was coming off as smooth and making her laugh, but inside I had *tons* of adrenaline circulating.

I guess it just comes with practice. If I approach these kind of girls (at least girls who are 9/10 beautiful), it will become completely second nature. It's just part of the human psyche to be nervous and have limiting beliefs when it comes to females of this level... they're not some overwieght 5 UGO that dropped out of high school and works at the worst strip club in the state....

This is a part of the reason why I suggested that "young people" have very little to offer girls but you're still working with a narrow interpretation of value. What I wrote was just one possible "vertical" out of a whole spectrum of things that can be valuable to a girl. The idea is to find your strengths and dangle it in front of her like a fat piece of bait. However, how many young people have "developed" their strengths? This is the reason why nearly all discussions regarding value on this forum goes something like, "I am social, I am fun, I am good looking, I am easy going . . . " - and really the reason why so many report, "Value game is bullshit!" - Well, it's bullshit because you have ZERO value.

If you don't have strengths, develop them. ONS's or even FB's are one thing, but the idea that you can be a plain Joe and use some sort of magic game to gain relationships is ridiculous, unless of course you're picking on a girl who can't do better.

Here's something to remember. Guys are INCREDIBLY simple beings. We want what's right in front of us here and now; we see a hot piece of ass and we want to tap it. We don't meet fat ugly girls who tell us, "I've been dieting, working out, setting goals," and think, "Wow! This girl is really, really hot! I want to bang her!" - This is simply not the way we function. Instead we tell her, "Whatever honey, call me in a year."

Girls on the other hand are quite imaginative and have the propensity to fantasize and thus, they don't necessarily limit themselves to what they see here and now. Yes, they too love to see the final product but what really drives them are the "components" of the final product. Meaning, it's not so much the fact that the guy has so many friends but his "ability" to have so many friends and gain more. It's not so much that the guy has so much money, but his skill sets and ability to make money. It's not so much that he's the life of THIS party but his ability to be the life of all parties.

The man's version of, "I've been dieting, working out, setting goals," does in fact turn girls on. But of course sooner rather than later, you gotta show her your cards.

So essentially males are immediate physical/imagery, females fantasize and imagine things.

Reminds me of a dog thinking "I WANT I WANT" panting in front of a steak on the dinner table, versus a cat sitting back and thinking about everything going on. Good at pretending and being coy

About developing my own strengths, you particularly mean something that you can share or even give to her?
For example i'd consider a few of my strengths being laid back/chill, health conscious and exercise, and love to push my comfort level day-to-day (try new things)

Wouldn't I show these values by simply sharing these with her, while i'm with her? For example, taking her random places and being spontaneous, taking her to the gym with me, and knowing how to relax well and not let everything get to her

What do these things mean? Everybody thinks that their laid back, chill, cool, social, athletic, fun, adventurous, etc . . .

You're a young man. Don't be satisfied with abstract "strengths" that can be developed by sitting on your couch and daydreaming.

You said yourself that the girl you approached dated a BASKETBALL SUPERSTAR. Go for concrete, tangible, identifiable goals. You think you push your comfort level? Then pack your shit, go to India, and study yoga for a year. You think you like to "exercise"? Then join a team, join a club. . . the guy who hangs out in gyms and executes the housewife work out (99% gym members) isn't "athletic". Achieve some success in your life . . . then you won't have to remind yourself that you're all these "things". . . you,ll just be living it.

Alright all, so I've found some time to compile this into a broad procedure and posted it here as a thanks for all your help. I'm going to be field testing this over the next few weeks as and when the situation arises, as it inevitably will. Have been busy with other girls since my last post. Last night my dick was ragged like a lawn mower :/ (lol). I'm pretty excited by the result we've come up with in this thread. I've tried to keep this summary as short as possible as it's important to me to keep the theory to a minimum and the field practice to a max. Good work everyone.

________________

AFC Adam – negative attraction + notes from advice given here:

Advanced form of frame control. Keep matching negativity, don’t make it easy. These girls often have a lot of hurt and are actually scared inside. But the outside appears the opposite. Their lives tend not to match the value of their beauty, which appears to often be a primary source of their discontent and backlash.

Negative attraction broken down:

1. Identify the girl – observe first
2. Build rapport – match negativity
3. Offer (covertly) real value in terms of commonality by building on her negativity
4. She tries to get you to validate – again, match negativity. Tread tight rope
5. Full isolation. She is the cockblock.
6. When the time comes, fast, strong escalation. No hesitation.

On value:

- Cannot compete on a superficial definition of value, á la the rating system
- Therefore must define interaction in terms of real value
- Entrance into my life; but not by conventional value; instead, by rapport & commonality.
o Note here: rapport & commonality is value in itself. So what do I mean by not offering conventional value? As Adam says, they don’t want someone to come into her life and start being amazing; they can already pick up the highest ‘value’ guy in the world. She is not content with her life because the value of her life does not match the value of her beauty; you have to have some sort of real value in your life or lifestyle which can HELP her bridge this difference/dissonance in her life.

Wow, lots of really good posts on this topic.

One more possibility: maybe you just need to plow some more.

You could easily be doing just the right amount between pushy and too-easily-beaten, but it's always an idea to consider.

_________________
Don't hate, just dominate.