Two questions in this post:

-Is night game, in the circumstances I define...dead?
-How do I pick up the hottest girl in town on that night?

I like to spend a lot of time in set, and in set for me/my purposes does not include online or people you already know (sorry, I'm old fashioned!). The last couple of months though, I've been wondering. Is night game really still a place to pick up women?

Two prerequisites to this question:

- Excluding the club-type one night stand
- excluding women who go out expecting to get laid that night.

I'm mainly talking about the big bar type SPAM, where the music is loud so verbal game has to be snappy. I'm not interested in going to a club at 2am and getting a quick lay; I'm talking about getting it on long-term with 8+'s. It seems to me that every 8+ is on mass rejection mode. Still, this is nothing new, and I'm able to pick up most of these, despite not being able to use hypnosis in that sort of SPAM.

However, here comes the second part of my problem. And I'm telling you, I've got problems. This is my longest standing sticking point and I still haven't overcome it:

The top dog.

I CAN'T FOR THE LIFE OF ME PICK UP THE TOP DOG IN A HIGH-ENERGY BAR AT NIGHT.

The top dog is the HB9 who is almost always:

-Blonde
-short skirt
-tall
-high heels
-bitch attitude.

But I don't get wtf I'm doing wrong. Take last night. I was in the biggest bar in town. I left my mate in set in another bar on the other side of town as he was going to ONS her. Went into the bar, social proofed, hit the dance floor, owned the dance floor, got kisses from other girls (but I rejected them because I was aiming for the top dog)...fuck, I even cleared the dance floor, the DJ shouted for the whole bar to circle me and they watched me dance...the pinnacle of value...and yet, when I hit on the top dog...she won't even give me a chance! What more can I do before starting the interaction? This happens to me often with the top dog. They sort of self destruct and run away or reject you as if you're physically dangerous. I could do with your help on this one.

xx

Even though I have managed to pull that off a few times, I have to say that I still haven't figured out a formula for it.
For example: My ex was a 5'10" model, blonde, well to summarize she was exactly what you described, I stole her from a group of 4 guys that where hitting on her on the dance floor, before that I had seen like 10 guys crashing and burning trying to get her, I moved in, danced with her, led her off to the side of the dance floor, took her number, left, called her the next day, after that we ended up dating exclusively for 3 months. But do I know exactly why she chose me? No, I really wish I knew what I did right.

One formula that I came up with that works pretty well is what I call "the arm-length approach" it is a brilliant way to break her bitch shield and make her crave you, but if she gives you zero attention initially, it will probably not work, I will link it for you anyways.
the-ultimate-truth-about-women-vt60694.html,

In my opinion though, it is all about being different from all the other guys, have better attitude, higher confidence, more personality, more charisma. Simply, you have to feel like a rock star, that attitude usually brings you everything you want. The nights that I have managed to pull the "top-dog" has always been nights where I have felt great and my confidence has been on top.
This is an interesting question, and I will keep thinking about it to see if I can come up with a better answer!

_________________
.............
Slywalker

10 things I wish someone taught me about Pick Up 10-things-i-wish-someone-taught-me-vt53087.html

I don´t know if this is going to help you, but I thought it was an interesting way dealing with bitchy women.


Negative attraction by AFC Adam

http://www.puatraining.com/puablog/2010 ... ion-video/

First, if you are planning getting a relationship out of nightgame I wish you good luck. My only advices for this is massive rapport after having sex with her.
By threating her like every other females... Threating her like a 10, if she notices it, will come accross as suplicating.
It is. But if you want to run verbal game for long in a set, you better do it in a bar, or an isolated spot at the club without too much noise. It's litterally impossible to keep a good convo in a noisy club.

Still you can hit the dancefloor, and get some tension for long with a girl.
You can also extract her to a couch and do some carressing.

Two prerequisites to this question:
I didn't get that one.
You mean girls who are already horny, already in a sexual state? The difference between them and other girls is simple... you have to make those who aren't horny... into horny bitches... easely said in a nuttshell


In that case wouldn't nonverbal be better? What about the dancefloor?
You don't need hypnosis to turn her on. Sexual tension is KEY!

Now it becomes interesting...
You just discribed why you don't get her.
Let's face it, your social value is high at that time or very low.
By being around so many girls, creates perceived social proof. This itself at these amounts gives you a HIGH social value...

Or... you have been perceived as the Tacky make out guy....
No 1 wants the tacky make out guy. Now you are low value...


Both are bad...

You want to be in between.

Alright. By being the low value guy, girls rejects you, because by interacting with you/having sex with you, will lower her value, and women are scared of that. Heck the only reasons social value can help you in pick up is because it makes girls allow themselves to be consciously attracted to you. You are now worth being attracted to according to her. This is the positive aspect of it.

Now remember, girls have ego's too. She wants to feel good about themselves. Some girls actually have that as a primary goal, getting attention. These are attention whores.
By being high value, you get more appealing when it comes to rejection. By rejecting the cool, high social value guy, she feels higher value, she feels better about herself. She gets her ego validated. So high social value is negative too.

Now you think, a smoking hot girl is High self esteem? not really. Most girls are low self esteem. This is also why we say women are submissive. High self esteem because she is hot? She maybe doesn't even know by herself that she is hot!

Bitchy girls is a mask to protect insecurities.

So high value is... low value is bad.

Conclusion? fuck that whole value thing. Focus on being... out of value, you are average and focus on other aspects. A way to bypass this thing is being a shadow/lowkey guy. Another cool thing with it, is that you won't been seen... so you lower her ASD. Remember the only reasosn social value has any effects is because:
_ She can suck your value to increase her own
_ She gets lett consequences out of having sex with you. In other words she thinks others will judge her less if she fucks a high value guy. Which means she won't lose much value.

But how can she be judged if no1 finds out about it? and how canshe cares about value when you project it? then social value won't mean a shit...
And when it comes to offering her social value.. well you can't do it much... anymore, but that's good you don't want to stay her social value provider for always.

So, stay lowkey, do not be perceived as low social value, but not as high either. Do this by acting cool and confident, forget the DHV spices.

And focus on attracting her with other traits.
_ Escalation
_ Sexual tension

ETC

These also works better non verbally, and fits well in the club.

Remember... escalation is the most attractive and most most powerful attraction tool out there!

_________________
Teevster (aka TVA_Oslo)
Offering Freakshows and fuckfests since 2007!


Free weekly posts on seduction, relationships, sex and fitness
http://themaleinsider.com/

So...

Being sexual is mostly the key to nightgame same as solving logistics.

This whole social value thing is big bullshit in my opinion in nightgame.

It only matters in social circle... then it can benefit you.

_________________
Teevster (aka TVA_Oslo)
Offering Freakshows and fuckfests since 2007!


Free weekly posts on seduction, relationships, sex and fitness
http://themaleinsider.com/

I'm actually good friends with a girl like this, and I asked her how come she never got with any of the good looking guys that tried it on with her and she said "I like watching them try".

There are a million reasons why you might fail Rafiel, you can't analyse and deduce everything, although you can try!

Sly,

Thanks, your input is always valued. Yes, you have to be different...that's a prerequisite. True about the rock star gag too. I think I have that down though. As I say, I always make sure my social value is through the roof before I game a top dog. the arm length link is a nice one, I read it at the time of your posting and have already incorporated it into my game. I think there's more there though, using it non-verbally. I'm going to try it more. Anyway I'll probably read over your post a few more times.

Jav,

THAT LINK IS FUCKING PRIME. AFC ADAM IS A LEGEND. My personal and uninformed opinion is that there are a lot of instructors who suck, but AFC Adam is the complete opposite. What a legend. That video was so fucking prime. I have been thinking of it all day at work today, waiting to try it out in field. The basic idea is so simple, so right, so at the core of what we do...how did I not figure it out? I guess I never realised that these top dogs live in such a negative outlook on these nights out - but it's so true!! Everything he described in that video was EXACTLY my problem, and EXACTLY what I was seeing. Amazing. He's exactly right. You can't go in positively because you lose your power. You can't go in with a neg-type approach because they'll use it as an excuse to gun you down. Negative attraction. What a legend. Thanks for that.

TVA,

Thanks for your long answer(s). I didn't understand some of what you said, like:
You made some good points; I think I have taken most of them into account (at least in my head, if not in practice yet - i.e. from the info I gave these are good answers, though not answers to problems I'm having). Thanks.

Trixta:
Yes, that's a given. If they don't shotgun you down immediately, these girls love to get your validation, then once they do, either add you to their army of minions (if you do particularly well), or if not, gun you down in an explosive and very embarrassing (presuming you get embarrassed) manner.
If you say so.

--

Anyway, I think I've got what I wanted from this thread in the first two posts, so thanks all, I'm going to field test a lot of this over the coming few weeks. PM me if you wish to know how I get on.

P.S.

As an aside, I will add this (I wanted to see your answers first); that night, before the top dog came, there was another top dog (rare for one location in one night); she was a 9 who seemed to value herself 8.5 though; she also stayed on the dance floor eerily long for someone that high value (albeit with her friend HB7 with massive jugs). Anyway, the point is, I opened her on the dance floor with "Are you trying to hide from all the boys" (she had just successively rejected a number of guys) and this opener worked really well. I then went on to say how my girlfriends do that a lot on nights out.

^This opener vaguely correlates with AFC Adam's negative attraction, and worked really well, so I welcome others to use it in this situation. I don't normally give my material out. Anyway, long story short, things went really well with her - lots of physical fractionation, teasing, held her hand and her friend with massive jugs' hand (her jugs nearly knocked me out) and did some 3-way dancing, cursed a lot that I left my wing in another bar so I couldn't isolate, but then in the end I missed them (I had planned to close when they left the dance floor, too much ASD due to social conditioning there) because I was too busy in another set. Oh wellies!

Addendum:

If anyone ever gets the chance to speak to TVA_Olso, do so, mandems got skill, and I don't say that easily xx

Rafiel, when I read the heading and saw that it is from you I instantly knew that this must be a problem that would be fun to discover/solve !! I am no PUA or any artist for that matter but here ar emy two cents from dating a few...lets say girls that most guys would term as hot, model types, even models. And here specificly your question is about night game

My advise for someone new going for the topdog is just that, DONT BOTHER. Its not worth the trouble. But knowing that you have been in the game for long I would say that here is where I see a mistake, You are trying the same game such as social value etc etc.. on a topdog and hoping that it would work. And why I think that may be wrong is because when it comes to Topdogs you have to observe them a little more from far before you make that approach. Why? Because these girls for some reason have some kind of a different wiring, as I may put it.

I would watch her interaction with others around her and see whether she is overtly friendly-likes people, happy, but again her whole validation is coming from people liking her; Whether she is extremely rude to everyone-She has a huge bitch shield(not a normal bitch shield that any other hot girl would have) but a bitch shield which is deep rooted in her past may be. May be her experience with past boyfriends or guys has just slept withe her or whatever. I dont know why but for some reason watching the interaction with others has helped me tremendously in caliberating my approach.

Now dancing on the floor and having everyone around the person, I am sorry to say but for some girls that could be perceived as a dancing Monkey who is seeking validation from the everyone around them. Dont ask me why but I have met these guys in clubs and have observed that the hottest(bitchy) ones DONT JOIN THE CROWD AND ARE BUSY WITH THEIR SURROUNDING AT THE BAR. I have never joined the crowd and this is my time to approach her.

ALSO, these girls are hot, they know they are the hottest in the club, they know every guy wants them, they have been to bars a numerous time and have seen these 'games', what do you bring to the table then ?? How do you give her some validation but at the same time dont give her ANY. ITS tricky and I'm NOT talking about some neg theory here ! I am talking about matching her sense of belonging (the way that she perceives the world) and creating commonality- but she has to be the one to see that commonality and call it out not you- because again every guy is trying to seek rapport with her anyways.

I dont know whether I'm able to explain this part, it just comes naturally to me but I'll try to explain this better and think more about this...I got to go out for now.

I once lived in the same building with this tall Indian dude who didn't have a verbal game to speak of. However, the guy danced liked he came off the set of Soul Train and he physically escalated girls rather quickly without fear.

He told me a funny story once. He met a "HOT"(so he says) girl on a plane and after some quick chit chat, put his hand on hers. That was just the beginning. As he was carrying on with useless chatter, he eventually undid her pants and tossed a blanket over her lap. Then he fingered her to an orgasm. Then after a little break, she smiled at him so he went for it again.

Now here's the funny part. He was actually surprised that she wouldn't answer his phone calls and when she finally did, she told him, "I'm too busy these days to see you. . ." This is basically the way most of his "relationships" went.

The thing is . . . most of you guys have a very narrow view of "value". You're young horny kids so you think that girls must also value this "sexual thing". You're in a club so you think, "I must be the life of this club" in order to be high value. Well yes, but what you demonstrate is how they will perceive you. To that girl in the plane, my buddy was the guy who can finger strangers in a plane. If you're the fun dancer of the club, then to the people of that club, you're the fun dancer of that club. Unless you think that the girls you meet want to actually DATE an amateur night club dancer or a "giver of orgasms to strangers", then you MUST OFFER HER MORE.

What is that "more"? You must demonstrate how YOU can increase value to HER LIFE. And you do this while playing the whole sexual game but "independently" of the level you are achieving with the sexual game. Meaning, the offering of her vagina has NOTHING to do with your value. You are essentially taking her most powerful "bargaining" chip away from her. You stack your incredible life "outside" of this un-real environment and include her in it. Girls watch movies and they ALWAYS put themselves in the position of a character; they fantasize and get carried away. This is what you want to do. You want her to DESIRE to be a part of your "movie".

In all seriousness, most of you young guys have very little to offer girls other than an boner and even if you do, the throbbing boner in your pants get in the way of demonstrating your VALUE to HER LIFE.

If you can figure this out, the 5 girls you number closed at the club will all be texting you after the club closes, when she wakes up, that afternoon, etc . . .

^ well put by Kasabi !! Like I said, the guy may be a great dancer, OKAY FINE SO WHAT ! Did she come and approach the dancer? Did the dancer dance with her? What value do you have to her and in her REALITY, Where do you guys connect? What have you demonstrated that would make her feel that SHE NEEDS TO CONNECT WITH YOU, KNOW YOU BETTER?

As I had just pointed out that in my experience the Hottest(Bitchiest) women would be at the bar oblivious to the crowd and have their own little followers of guys circling them-And thats my time to approach.

You can only go by what you see. For all you know she might've just split up with a boyfriend she really loved, but her friends dragged her out and she is going to be moody all night. Or, she doesn't talk to strangers. It could be anything.

Remember most girls are at the club for attention and ego boost they get from guys hitting on them, not to hook up with you. It's all a numbers game some girls simply won't like you. When i go out sometimes I get the topdog then sometimes i don't.

The same way you want that blonde blue eyed girl. She might want that blonde blued eyed guy. If your not that guy she's not going to be interested its as simple as that, it won't matter what kind of sexual tension routine you try to run on her.

_________________
Friendzone 1-vt51424.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I would say your value is too high!
This might sound odd, but you getting all that attention and girls hitting on you makes you centre stage. The hottest woman in the bar already gets to much attention if you and her are together, you will get swamped.

What I would suggest is trying to aim for a higher class of value. At the moment, you are king of the club, not the king of the VIP's at the club. To put it out of context:
Being the leader of 10 homeless people vs being the leader of 10 millionaires.
Both are leaders, but are the two leaders equal?

How to solve this problem, you need to get noticed in a more subtle way! At the moment you seem to be trying to get attention, you need to seem to not be trying to get attention and still be high value.

The ideal way for this to work is being in a booth with 2 other attractive guys and about 4 HB8+'s all having a good time. She will notice you! When you are sure she has noticed you, then you go over and tell her she can come over to your booth if she brings a good story to tell!

See the idea?

And those aforementioned reasons could be a reason why he fails. They apply to every girl.

I see what you're saying hobbit, this is a problem because he can't pick up the top dog at all. I can't help with that, but I can offer a different perspective on that.

One PUA said to me that sarging annoyed him, because when he got rejected by girls he deemed lower than himself who "would've been lucky to get him" always blamed his game. This is the only way to get better, but if you are solely placing the blame on your game then it can effect you.

Blame your game always, but always acknowledge that sometimes outside factors can have an effect on situations, and that it's not simpyl because you didn't do X Y or Z.