I'm Glad I figured this one out about women. Your example on corporate leaders also is spot on. Never thought about it hard before, thanks. This applies to PU as well. If you are too High Value and the woman can't relate to you or is intimidated she would not go for you. Hence caliberation again is important !!

Essentially, yes. Many of you are probably familiar with this way of NLP-inspired way of thinking. It just struck me as relevant here: it is important to look at shyness as a process, something that happens, something that people do, not something that people are. Even if you call someone a "shy person" what you are really saying is that they have acted in a shy manner on a consistent basis in the past. And if you get a "shy person" in the right state, they can run the process called "outgoing" just like those business leaders who shine at conferences or quiet, artistic types who let loose on stage with a band.
By joker, are you talking about a generic example of guys doing pick-up and being jokers... or are you talking about the sociopath villain from the SPAM series? lol

If you're a leader, people will often have this exaggerated perception of you; therefore, you often have to express that you are "one of the guys" in order for people to treat you with respect as opposed to obedience. On the other hand, if you're not a leader, you often have to do things to stand out and become a leader.

Interesting observations. It is very much a balancing act. Such is life.

_________________
Live Your Truth.

From an online Dictionary for "SHY":

shy 1 (sh)
adj. shi·er (shr) or shy·er, shi·est (shst) or shy·est
1. Easily startled; timid.
2.
a. Drawing back from contact or familiarity with others; retiring or reserved.
b. Marked by reserve or diffidence: a shy glance.
3. Distrustful; wary: shy of strangers.
4. Not having paid an amount due, as one's ante in poker.
5. Short; lacking: Eleven is one shy of a dozen.
intr.v. shied (shd), shy·ing, shies (shz)
1. To move suddenly, as if startled; start.
2. To draw back, as from fear or caution; recoil.
n. pl. shies (shz)
A sudden movement, as from fright; a start.

Marc, NONE of those "shy leaders" you mentioned have the above qualities. I love it when these leaders go on a TV interview (in front of millions of viewers, TV crew, crazy news anchors who do this for a living) and with a straight face tells everybody, "Well, I am quite shy". Ha ha ha ha . . . this is taking the "I am JUST like any of you" message one step too far. Ever push an average shy person to go on TV, or a stage in front of an audience? They tremble, stutter, sweat, etc . . .

I think what you're trying to say is that "It's OK TO BE BETA" (You will still get laid) Unless of course there is an alpha standing next to you who wants the same girl.

100%

Kasabi; Could I get your thoughts on my theory of leadership.

A leader amongst humans is selected because they create the greatest utility for the group. Their job is to help unify and direct the group towards the goals that it hopes to achieve.

A Leader of humans, within a social context is not necessarily someone who dominates those in his group.. in contrast to say a pride of Lions.

Leadership =/= power.

The leader has a responsibility to serve his group and not the other way around.

Any thoughts on this?

This part is "yes".
This part . . . well . . . this is surely what the laborer thinks. When's the last time you saw a group of people form "goals" for themselves? The marines go to war because this is 'their' goal? Who tells them to go? Who is the beneficiary? And do they go reluctantly? Even the craziest inhumane shit is done with a smiles on their faces when a talented leader knows how to do it "right".

The average person has no goals, all they want to do is keep themselves from going hungry and hope that they belong on the winning team so that they can continue to eat "tomorrow".
It depends on your definition of "dominate". Reminds me of this article I read a while back:

Snipes also noted, "I read that Asian women were bedroom generals. Some people think that means they're great in bed, but that's not the issue. They're talking about a place where the man is at his most vulnerable, where they have the most control. They don't have to beat him over the head to mow the lawn. They can whisper it in his ear and give him a kiss on the cheek and it's no problem. That's a general."(August 1998: Jet Magazine v.94 #13 pg.58)
Many great leaders seem to love saying stuff like this but the actual result of "saying stuff like this" is that the group and the leader serve each others' needs.

1. Well my guess is that the marines didn't really "elect" that leader. But the may support him because he has the skills and knowledge to complete their mission objective and get them all out alive in the end of it?

2. By dominating I meant, Bob doesn't help unload Gregs beer into the house because he fears the consequences Greg would bestow on him if he didn't.

3. So what does the leader achieve as a leader that he would not get with another leader providing him utility? Control? Ensurance that things will be done in his favour?

Thanks for the responce Kasabi.

Hmmm... I know that we are both not on different tangents because we both are saying in our own ways that the external fluff and Fake it till you make it would not take you far and to cut all the BS. But for some reason we are getting stuck and in disagreement on the whole concept of, what I strongly believe, "Understand who you are, what your strenghts are and learn to like yourself rather than mimic someone else. And once you know where you want to get in life(professionally, personally) try to bridge that gap and not just ACT AS IF"
I don't think that is entirely true. The Prince in question, leaders etc.. do exhibit fidgety closed body language with eyes rolling, a shy glance or whatever. Is there a chance that the they put on an act (fluff) of out going personality when put in interviews. But again, its debatable and may be one of us would come around and understand the other's point in due course.

I didn't want my statements to be construed that way and incase thats what I'm coming across as then NO thats not what I ment. But there are different types of Alpha men I believe and you can maintain a strong frame and exhibit qualities such as protector of loved ones, going for what you want in life, having a backbone and not bending over backwards for a girl or anyone, etc.. by not killing yourself for who you are.

Also Kasabi, here is my question: There are 6 billion people on this planet, out of which even if you say half are men, of which half are getting laid, would you say that all of them are Alpha Males !! There is only one king in the kingdom, does that mean that all women want to sleep with only the king and no one else?

And again, I know that you have wealth of knowledge and hence I initiated the discussion. Kindly don't read my counters as challenging your concepts or anythingcbecause its not intended to be that way.And on a forum a simple sentence could be construed in many different ways and blown out of context

Thanks, looking forward to read your thought.

Marc. Losers get laid too.

If the only ones that got laid were PUAs, we wouldnt have survived for all those years before it was invented. And we wouldnt have an overpopulated planet.

Marc,

Obviously, there are more ingredients involved in the "leadership soup" than the antonyms of "shyness". But why search for exceptions when it is OBVIOUS that almost all effective leaders in the World are not shy? If you'd like to hone the qualities of leadership, then just work on it. . . ALL of it. Why look for cop-outs?

Learn to like yourself? Accepting your faults is the first step. WORKING to fix your faults is the next step. Realizing your faults and then sitting on your ass doing nothing about it is in fact self hatred. Which is why so many can't even achieve the first step. How many post have you read in this forum where the posters just type BULLSHIT. "I am this, I am that, I am an 11!! I am the best . . . ehm. . . so how do I secure her number again? Why won't she call me? Really . . . this is unusual for m. Usually, I rock the show . . .blah, blah . . ." = D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-A-L. This is what all the low level, non-progressing idiots of the World do.

There's nothing wrong with creativity but if you have no reference point for success, then what's so wrong with "mimicking"? Successful companies and individuals mimic all the time. In business, they call it "bench marking". Leaders copy each other all the time.
By definition, there is no alpha without betas for a reference point. So no matter what you do or don't do, unless others revere you as an alpha, guess what, you are no an alpha.

But what about fighters?
I mean they can stand in a ring in front of a guy with 2,15 meters and 150 kilos and not even blink, and while the public is watching.
While they cant approach a girl or talk to her normaly. That's shyness too.

_________________
"They're playing groupie, so I'm playing rock star." (mystery)

Kasabi... Im an 11 was meant as a joke... And yes I did take credit for that comment.

Anyway. What is wrong with having a mindset that you are in face an awesome guy. Hear me out here. If you are in fact also aware of your problems. The thing is that nobodys perfect but the ones who do something about it, who work in that direction are the ones who are gonna come closest in the end. I mean, there is a difference between being perfect and being awesome. We are all awesome people in a way. Isnt that what it is all about? When we get to know someone they normally turn out to be just great, but that greatness is hidden inside. (In shyness if you will.)

Im not sure I understood your comment fully but I dont see the problem of accepting the fact that despite your faults you are a great person. You dont have to be perfect to make such a claim.
I mean the entire MM is basically avoiding to fuck up for long enough for people to see that you are great too. Oh, so you are great, we are too, lets be great together.

I agree that just sitting on your butt believing that you are perfect is bad because you dont ever change anything but surely you dont mean that everybody should have a mindset that "Im not good enough" until they reach Nirvana or whatever?

Am I misunderstanding something here?

^Agree with you.

There is however a difference between LIVING your greatness vs LIVING a lie by covering yourself up with plastic adjectives.

Perfection is achieved by living through imperfection, not by applying a mask to hide it.

It seems that we are on the same page after all! I just didnt fully understand your post. Are you by any chance a Zen Buddhist?

Kasabi, very good explanation that would help a lot of us.

We have some agreements and some disagreements which I'm hoping with time, may be I would understand or be able to better articulate my views. But for now I would like to focus on the agreements and list my takeaways from our discussion.

Here are my take aways from this thread:

1) An ACT of Alpha can take you only so far, and everything superficial tends to fade hence its imperative to take PROACTIVE steps to internalize the mindset of an Alpha.

2) You cannot begin to evolve unless you learn to accept and realise your faults. Then again make consious efforts to improve.

3) Self hate will get you no where. See where you are and where you want to be and then bridge that gap.

4) There are different kinds of Alpha males and just because you are sensitive/insensitive towards people, compassion/incompassion etc..should not be the sole criteria in defining your alpha/beta status.

Any newbees reading this kindly strike out the word SHY because we clearly have a disagreement on that.

Here I understand the concept of reference point and bench marking. But mimicing or copying is different than bench marking IMO. E.g. A car manufacturing company has 6 call centres in the country to provide their customers road side assistance - great customer service. A lotion company opens 6 call centres around the country to replicate(mimic) the customer service and provide styling and fashion tips to women buying their products.

^Here mimicing is just copying without having an understanding of your industry, style, and customer base. But Benchmarking would infact be providing same standard of customer service but in a very different way.

This example is an exagiration but I guess you get my point