Debating on this forum; Check your ego.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:49 pm 
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I know what godwin's law is, and am aware of it :P


And i was gonna post about The Big Lie theory, but I considered that wasn't going anywhere.


Does everyone have the same perspective?
Does everyone know the same thing as the other?

NO, I can say this because otherwise why wouldn't know the words "argue" OR "discussions".

One person's claims and theories may make no SENSE to someone else, because we are not similair, we walk and are walking a different path than someone else. Which is good.
Instead of getting mad at the other person because you don't understand him, try to get on the same level. What is he talking about? What is the context? What made him think that way.

And just some respect goes along way.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:26 pm 
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Fuck

Fin my man

put those lovely paragraphs into a routine

and go out and sarge.

Seriously.

Sometimes I wonder about you people.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:54 pm 
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Funny how a post about thread arguments turned into a thread argument about thread arguments.

Really there's no other way to do it. People have an opinion, they voice it. You can't go inside other people's heads to see their logic. Everyone has logic in their own mind, but sometimes that logic is not shared by someone else. You can try to explain it but sometimes that doesn't work.

Thread arguments turn out the way they do for a reason. Just saying.

PS: Good post, it's about time someone brought this up.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:14 pm 
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Guys, logic is law. That's why all logical people agree on every issue. And that's why there is no need to control variables and test things. We can just deduce answers!
If logic isn't law, then why are you attempting rational debate? :lol:

Empirical evidence is another thing, but hey tell you what hobbit; you have chance to prove me wrong :)

Find me empirical evidence which no one is trying to logically explain :)

If you gain new emprical knowledge then you incorporate that into your logic. And in Logic deduction is usually a terrible way to investigate.

The real world has almost infinite possibilities, so you induce you do not deduce otherwise it would take you forever to come to an answer.

Empirical evidence is used to provide premises for further argument and it itself is in term explained through logic.

I'm not against evidence by any means hobbit. I''m against the lack of it :)

If you do not believe that logic is the law of the universe. Then ignore science and all forms of rational debate. Don't back your claims with arguments or evidence see if anyone takes you seriously :)

It's interesting Jav mentions perspective, because that's where alot of arguments come from. Different people have different experiences, and as such when they think on things they have a different starting point. Which should be something to take into consideration when teaching. Find out what model or previous idea's the person has about women etc

And work from there :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:28 pm 
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Stay away from those who claim to have found the truth, follow those who seek the truth.

~confucius


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:11 pm 
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Just beware, Prosp3ct, of getting hoist by your own petard :) Ego has teeth, to be sure, but those teeth have a funny way of biting you back. It sounds like you think right now that ego is a weapon turned only outward. First, those with true inner strength don't need to wield weapons against others. Second, those with true inner strength realize that any such aggression has a boomerang effect; it will swing around and hit home, often with multiplied force.

Hope this is food for thought :)

Ciornia
Totaly agree...

But here's a methapor for thinking.
Let's say you need to kill someone. Would you use a dangerous sniper gun or a primitive and totaly simple knife?
A stupid hitman would choose a knife because you dont need any learning, you just stab your target. But it's WAY more chance that you will get cought.

A smart hitman would choose a sniper gun, probably he'll fucked up sometimes, maybe he would even shot himself in his foot. He would maybe even break his gun so he'd have to buy a new one.
But he would stick up to his learning...
And when he would learn to use the sniper gun properly he would have so fucking more advantages than the guy with a knife that's not even funny.


What I'm saying is that choose the fucking dangerous way and learn to control it. Fuck up many times. Even shot yourself in your leg sort of speaking.
But when you heal you'll be so much better than all the other guys that's not even funny. Aim high.
It's better to have 50% skills of a perfect game than 99% of a medium skilled game.
Safer way sucks, it's inferior and what's more important LESS FUN:)))
Prosp3ct,

Your metaphor conflates the idea of removing the ego with the idea of playing things safe. I wasn't speaking about making the safe choice -- in life or in pickup. In fact, I believe that safe choices -- apart from obvious cases of deciding not to put oneself in the path of an oncoming bus -- are often lousy choices, and that it's important to go balls out in life and pickup.

Where you and I differ is in our view of whether the ego is desirable -- or necessary -- in pickup. I would argue it's not. I would argue that the ego prevents people from being in touch with their true and best selves -- that it blinds them. So, to retake your metaphor, picture two hitmen. One has managed to shed his ego and is able to see clearly, with the greatest scope imaginable, his best and truest target. The other, his vision shrouded by the ego, is wearing a thick blindfold and firing his rifle without benefit of a lens.

But we may just have to agree to disagree on this point :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:14 am 
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Ciornia:
Good arguments, you gave me something to think about.

But the way I think is that ego can help you if you can control it.
If you are stupid it can hurt more than help, just for the reasons you gave me.

But if you are smart you can take the benefits (like being able to act more confident, having higher standards, being able to plow) from it and block the disadvantages (like being an asshole, arrogant prick, cocky MoFo:).

Have you seen the David Deangelos DVD Deep Inner Game? Dr. Paul is talking about something that you have to have like a camera over yourself. In methapor speaking.
Like a observatory above yourself.
So you are kinda detached from the things you do and just observe yourself from objective point of view.
Like having two minds.

This prevents you from doing stupid stuff, because you see things objectivly. It's hard to develop this, because ego keeps interfering with your thoughts and deeds but it can be done.

Than the ego can become like a weapon. You can let it loose whenever you want to because you see things objectivly with that other objective mind. And when that mind thinks that ego is doing stupid shit it can restrain it.

If you dont know what I'm talking about see Deep Inner Game from David Deangelo. Good shit I tell you. I learned lots from that DVDs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:39 am 
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Guys, logic is law. That's why all logical people agree on every issue. And that's why there is no need to control variables and test things. We can just deduce answers!
LOL nice...
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Nope, but even if I was it wouldn't matter. Faith is different to boldly proclaiming things to be true without evidence.
I like to think of faith and logic as oil and water, or even better as relativity and quantum mechanics. I didn't give up my logic when I gave up agnosticism; I just made room for faith, too.

Fin, I would like to direct you to the Monkey Mind thread and politely ask you for the logical solution to the riddle. Here's a link to it: monkey-mind-vt59102.html

If you believe that logic is the end-all, be-all of this universe, I respect that. Personally, I am much happier having made room for faith and other interpretations of reality. To each his own.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Guys, logic is law. That's why all logical people agree on every issue. And that's why there is no need to control variables and test things. We can just deduce answers!
LOL nice...
Quote:
Nope, but even if I was it wouldn't matter. Faith is different to boldly proclaiming things to be true without evidence.
I like to think of faith and logic as oil and water, or even better as relativity and quantum mechanics. I didn't give up my logic when I gave up agnosticism; I just made room for faith, too.

Fin, I would like to direct you to the Monkey Mind thread and politely ask you for the logical solution to the riddle. Here's a link to it: monkey-mind-vt59102.html

If you believe that logic is the end-all, be-all of this universe, I respect that. Personally, I am much happier having made room for faith and other interpretations of reality. To each his own.
Logical soloution: Shoot the Monkey, the monkey hasn't specefied when they die he has just said, consider that they will die. That's like saying if I tap my pen on the desk as I jump into the air I will come to earth again. There is no connection; it happens anyway.

However this is a Koan and probably has some subtext beneath in terms of what it represents. The Monkey or mother and father may stand for something else. Or maybe it is a trick question getting us to just accept the idea that there is a talking monkey.

This sounds like one I have read before and I would believe that it is considering de-tatchment from "Duhkka" or desire/fear; what is preventing the boy from achieving his aim (shooting the monkey) is the fear of something which is inevitable anyway.

For example approach anxiety; it's inevitable that you will get blown out, yet still people fret and fear about it to the point where it stops them from achieving their initial goal becuase they become pre-occupied with trying to prevent the un-preventable.

However I could well be wrong, their are plenty of other sensible answers, amongst the one answer that the Koan was designed for.

As for Faith.
Inductive logic always leaves a possbility open; because something has not been proven does not mean that it may not be so. But the statistical chance of it being so is so small that belief in it holds the same weight as belief in the easter bunny. I have a couple of beliefs which I hold on faith; but I would never expect to teach them to someone and have that person accept them on the grounds of "faith". Faith is a personal thing, and as such should be avoided as a teaching tool.



More-so if I personally was unable to solve this problem, but say someone like yourself or hobbit was.. then for example say I did eventually understand it. The thought process which lets me understand it is logic.

Again I would like someone to find me something which is illogical, not backed by any evidence, yet still considered to be true. :)

@Jav; Yes and no, the quote is showing that complacent teachers are often bad teachers. It is not teaching against teachers who probably explain why they believe something and provide their students with a way to examine that.

This community was founded on trying to make sense of Dating, and then having in-field experience to back that up and strengthen theories.

It was not built on "enlightened grandmaster says...." And for the spiritual types; think about how Buddhist Philosophy is built, before you argue against logical process :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:46 pm 
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Madels you are so right! it does end up in a no you situation lol.

im guilty of it all the time


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:34 pm 
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Madels you are so right! it does end up in a no you situation lol.

im guilty of it all the time
Notice this thread has become a no you situation :P


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:33 pm 
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Ciornia:
Good arguments, you gave me something to think about.

if you are smart you can take the benefits [of ego] (like being able to act more confident, having higher standards, being able to plow) from it and block the disadvantages (like being an asshole, arrogant prick, cocky MoFo:).
Have you seen the David Deangelos DVD Deep Inner Game? Dr. Paul is talking about something that you have to have like a camera over yourself. In methapor speaking.
Like a observatory above yourself.
So you are kinda detached from the things you do and just observe yourself from objective point of view.
Like having two minds.
This prevents you from doing stupid stuff, because you see things objectivly. It's hard to develop this, because ego keeps interfering with your thoughts and deeds but it can be done.
Prosp3ct,

Yes, I have seen that DeAngelo video, and it makes some good points.

When the ego pops up and we are able, through self-awareness, to observe its tricks and shed light on its dark corners, we are able to strip it of its power.

In my opinion, though, pickup is, as its full name suggests, an art. Ideally, it is about the creative moment and about flow. Take a painter or a writer or a sculptor as an example. While immersed in the flow of a creative moment -- that is, while in the act of creating each element of a work of art -- the artist must be open and fully in touch with his or her inner self. There is no place in that moment for a critical, editorial eye over the shoulder; that eye only hinders the creativity and flow. Sure, the artist can think beforehand about what he hopes to do, and he can assess afterward -- with that critical, editorial eye -- what he's created, in order to fine-tune it. But in the moment of creation -- in the moment of pickup -- the artist should strive to be at one with himself, not two separate entities.

To my mind, the "benefits" you ascribe to the ego -- confidence, standards, etc. -- do not stem from the ego at all. They stem from being true to yourself -- from following your passions. You can't "act" confident, in the sense that true confidence is not a cloak you can put on and take off. Confidence can certainly ebb and flow at different points in our lives. But, at any given time, either you are confident or you aren't confident. If you're "acting" confident, you're just faking it. Granted, if you're not at a point where confidence can flow naturally from you, it's better to fake confidence than to showcase insecurity. But perceptive girls will quickly sniff out this hole in your inner game.

In my view, the critical, editorial eye is not the same thing, as you seem to suggest, as the ego. At any rate, neither the ego nor anything else can prevent us entirely from acting stupidly; we are human. At best, we can hope to reduce the number of stupid decisions we make. And, in my opinion, we don't ever see things objectively. We can only see them subjectively. A situation in which many people speak of seeing something "objectively" is really only one in which their prism -- their view based on their own experiences -- happens to match the view that many other people are likely to hold of that situation. Even as we try to remove the self -- as we might strive for compassion or empathy -- we do so subjectively.

Another portion of food for thought. Hope it helps :)

Ciornia


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Ciornia:
So what is ego good for then, if not for confidence and standards?
Why not block it entirely then. Learn to recognize it and just block it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Fin. Great post!

Arguing over the internet is like competing in the paralympics. Even if you win, you are still retarded. ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:03 pm 
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Ciornia:
So what is ego good for then?
Why not block it entirely then. Learn to recognize it and just block it.
Exactly!


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