Social Independance? What does that mean?



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Before it gets pick up relevant this may seem very irrelevant; but this is incredibly Pick Up related and you will directly benefit from reading, understanding and applying this.

Social contract describes a broad class of theories that try to explain the ways in which people form states to maintain social order. The notion of the social contract implies that the people give up some rights to a government or other authority in order to receive or maintain social order through the rule of law. It can also be thought of as an agreement by the governed on a set of rules by which they are governed.

That is a philosophical concept known as "Social Contract Theory". Famous philosophers who backed it include Rawls, Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes and even Dawkins.

But its idea or philosophical flavour is almost a universal theme when considering secular morality, politics or society in general.

For many and me; it is accepted as the simplest and most effective way to explain the origin of civilised man. (Biologically this is a theory; backed by Evolutionary Biology -Prof Richard Dawkins- to top it all off)

A good phrase to sum up this theory is, “humans work well together”.

We aren't particularly strong; we don't have horns, a venomous bite, wings to flee predators, running through a forest compared to a fox or a deer we are rather slow, we don’t have a natural ability to burrow or a spiky outer skeleton to prevent us from being eaten.

We work well together, because it is the only way we can work; you didn't build your laptop, your car, you didn't invent electricity, start this forum, make those clothes you wear or the house that you live in. These are all products of society, these are the advantages; the rewards that society gives you for participating and pulling your weight.

Society in return has made some requests. Including that you don't kill people in your society, or take what isn't yours, that you stick to your agreements, that you work when required and most important for pick up.

Society also works on the principle that you agree and work within set social constructs and schemas and you under most circumstances will avoid deviating from them while you are a part of society.

Now I know it’s an attitude held by some to believe…

“Man! society conditions us to be such chodes, expecting us to live like this and that, I will be my own person, I will do what I want to.”

And you know what, I think society does have elements that aren’t good for our (both men and women’s) emotional health; advertising in particular I have a grudge with.

Here’s where I differ, I don’t actually think agreeing to societies constructs are bad. In fact, its great! Participating in society is awesome it has thousands of benefits; you meet more people to be-friend or to mate with. You can conduct Business better and all round you will thrive.

Social masturbation is fun and all; you could indulge in everything you wanted to, you could “be your own person”. But it’s not really constructive if you want to be part of society, if you want to be a winner when it comes to people.

Obsessing over how you are perceived is unhealthy, being aware of it and concerned of it is a “must” when it comes to good people skills.

You see the ability for an animal or person to observe it’s social setting and the participants with whom it communicates and then adjust its behaviour depending on those two factors is considered to have a strong sense of social intelligence.

My view of charm is that while plenty of it can be presentation of body-language and facial expression, a lot of it is also understanding the context that you are in, and knowing what behaviour you need to exhibit in order to achieve the most from the participants in the communication.

Even most of the stalwart proponents of “I am my own person, I am me never different unless I change for progress”. Will act differently when sarging to when they are applying for a bank loan or to extend the date for their end of year essay.

Society works by having people compromise their behaviours, and possibly adopt new ones, in order to help with inter-personal compatibility so that the people in society can gain the advantages that said compatibility provides society.

Here is an example; when I have people over, I play Latin music, acoustic, smooth jazz, bit of industrial, and some European hip-hop. These are all part of my musical taste, but there is a compromise.

If I was on my own or with very like minded individuals, their would also be Black Metal, Baroque Classical, Death Metal, Goth rock, Hard-Core, some Neo Romantic period Classical, and a smattering of Gothic Extreme.

I compromise, like any social human being does, because when I make these compromises, I create utility for my guests, they can listen to music and dance to music which they enjoy, I also get to listen to music I like.

For the sacrifice that I made -being aware that they may not find Divine Heresy to be “musical brilliance”- I also generate extra utility for myself, I can have people over with me and enjoy myself with them.

There are moments like above where you must be aware of preferential tastes and likes etc.

Music is a fairly common area where people make compromises but it is more about preference than social constructs, and so it isn’t a great analogy for what I am communicating; so allow for my second example.

In a couple of Months I will be hopefully competing in a University Judo Tournament. Now my background is mainly Chinese Martial arts not Japanese. Japanese Martial Arts were often heavily incorporated into military use and a lot of them developed in a military sub-culture. As a result respect for superiors and opponents is often formalised in bowing etc. Where as the Chinese Martial Arts culture is a lot more layed back. A lot of the Chinese martial arts are close to some of the Philippine martial arts in their “Ghetto” roots. Often Chinese Martial Arts are viewed as the “Boys in the hood” of the martial arts world.

As a result I’m not big on bowing to everyone I meet, or formalising my respect through gestures. But in a few months time, lets say my name was called and I walked out onto the matt to meet my opponent and upon the signal to bow, I lean over to the referee and whisper “Ehhh… Bowing isn’t really my thing…”

I’d get kicked out of the competition, no amount of frame control or confidence will change this.

Society as well as having attitudes that are flexible, also comprises of a set of rules, which, you cannot break without upheaval.


Again.

Society comprises of a set of rules, which, you cannot break without upheaval.


The question now that we know that we must play by these rules or face the consequences is…

Does a compromise of behaviour lead to a compromise of identity?

Not necessarily, I am a philosopher first and foremost, it is my passion and listening to me talk about philosophy and my views can be either really annoying or fascinating depending on what side of the fence you are from. That’s my preference, but I often have to keep this aside in other conversations and other relationships. Hiding your personality for me would be shifty; it would be a changing of identity and behaviour.

However allowing people to be aware of your identity, but altering your behaviour is the best of both worlds.

The fact that so much communication is made before mating tells you about male to female human interactions. We are social, inter-dependant beings and as such we mate socially.

Be aware of the social territory, what you can and can’t do and what response that will cause.

Don’t fight the social system, learn it, and work with it; cause love it or hate it. It’s all you’ve got.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:58 pm 
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I concur


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:43 am 
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Does a compromise of behaviour lead to a compromise of identity?



However allowing people to be aware of your identity, but altering your behaviour is the best of both worlds.
People should definitely take not of this; for some reason you can't be your own person if you follow the trends and patterns of society, no matter how little. Truth is you can.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:45 am 
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Here's a question, and one that I have been wondering for awhile as I try to define my own approach to PUA. When does one cross the line of conforming to society out of necessity versus conforming because of ease? I mean obviously, in business situations this is an easy answer. However, when it comes to women it seems different as you are displaying a more fluid form of self. For instance, I've always been a hardcore romantic, probably why I'm still a virgin to a certain degree (well that and my own problems with AA and whatnot but I'm working on it, with great success so far); now, my past has taught me that the changing of personal character is a slippery slope, I mostly learned this from my father. Lately I've been wondering if my approach to women is incorrect, and whether or not I should stop romanticizing everything to such a degree. However, the aforementioned part holds a very real space in my personal character. I'm a writer and a bit of a philosopher such as yourself, but sometimes it seems like men of our ilk can become too caught up with the pursuit of personal growth and candor to realize that everything isn't as serious as our thought processes lead us to believe. Therefor, is it worth losing a trait of yourself in order to make life easier, or is the pursuit of refinement worth going after? My ideology is sort of a double-edged sword I suppose: on one hand, it works wonders for my music and intellectual pursuits; but on the other hand it seems to make life more complicated at my age. I realize I have had limiting thoughts in the past, and I am working through them. Just not sure whether my romanticism is a negative or a positive, granted maybe I just need to start gaming the right set of women. I do have this to say: one reason I'm beginning to love this community is that here we find a place where people have the balls to discuss these kinds of things. It seems like most of my friends find any topic relating to philosophy or the sense of self as a waste of time. It might be my age group, but that's been my impression for the most part.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:34 am 
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Good read, also sticking to the social rules prevents you from getting your ass thrown in jail.

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It seems like most of my friends find any topic relating to philosophy or the sense of self as a waste of time. It might be my age group, but that's been my impression for the most part.
Yeah, my friends are the same, and it's not the agegroup, it's the type of friends you've chosen.

As far as your question goes, maybe tone down the romanticism until she is your GF.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:39 pm 
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Quote:
Here's a question, and one that I have been wondering for awhile as I try to define my own approach to PUA. When does one cross the line of conforming to society out of necessity versus conforming because of ease? I mean obviously, in business situations this is an easy answer. However, when it comes to women it seems different as you are displaying a more fluid form of self. For instance, I've always been a hardcore romantic, probably why I'm still a virgin to a certain degree (well that and my own problems with AA and whatnot but I'm working on it, with great success so far); now, my past has taught me that the changing of personal character is a slippery slope, I mostly learned this from my father. Lately I've been wondering if my approach to women is incorrect, and whether or not I should stop romanticizing everything to such a degree. However, the aforementioned part holds a very real space in my personal character. I'm a writer and a bit of a philosopher such as yourself, but sometimes it seems like men of our ilk can become too caught up with the pursuit of personal growth and candor to realize that everything isn't as serious as our thought processes lead us to believe. Therefor, is it worth losing a trait of yourself in order to make life easier, or is the pursuit of refinement worth going after? My ideology is sort of a double-edged sword I suppose: on one hand, it works wonders for my music and intellectual pursuits; but on the other hand it seems to make life more complicated at my age. I realize I have had limiting thoughts in the past, and I am working through them. Just not sure whether my romanticism is a negative or a positive, granted maybe I just need to start gaming the right set of women. I do have this to say: one reason I'm beginning to love this community is that here we find a place where people have the balls to discuss these kinds of things. It seems like most of my friends find any topic relating to philosophy or the sense of self as a waste of time. It might be my age group, but that's been my impression for the most part.
People who think philosophy is an abstract skill, often have little knowledge of the history of, law, medicine, politics and science.

Philosophy, being trained in rational thought, is the one reason that we are where we are as a species :)

On your other question.

Depends on how much you value growth. Value is outside of biology a largely subjective concept.

If you think constant growth at the sacrifiice of sociability is worth it, then that's fine. No one can really cross you on that. Becuase that is a desire, and not up for rational debate unless your desire stems from a particular set of beliefs.

But some people may just value settling down and fitting in... having "a comfortable life" as it were.

:)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:48 am 
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I completely agree with your views on philosophy, being able to constantly think this way is one of the major reasons I want to become an attorney (a life of travel being the other). As for the romanticism, I've decided I'm going to find a way through PUA and other methods to turn it into a strength instead of pushing it aside for comfort. I've never been one to shy away from adversity, and I have absolutely no interest in becoming normal or complacent. Life is too short not to go for it. I want my life to be a constant challenge, anything less just seems boring and ordinary. It is my belief that each of us are here on this earth to answer a question. Some lose sight of their passion, and some are just too afraid to pursue it. However, when you accept yourself for who you are and make things work regardless, the future is often more rewarding. Life should be an adventure of growth, anything else is lacking.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:34 am 
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I completely agree with your views on philosophy, being able to constantly think this way is one of the major reasons I want to become an attorney (a life of travel being the other). As for the romanticism, I've decided I'm going to find a way through PUA and other methods to turn it into a strength instead of pushing it aside for comfort. I've never been one to shy away from adversity, and I have absolutely no interest in becoming normal or complacent. Life is too short not to go for it. I want my life to be a constant challenge, anything less just seems boring and ordinary. It is my belief that each of us are here on this earth to answer a question. Some lose sight of their passion, and some are just too afraid to pursue it. However, when you accept yourself for who you are and make things work regardless, the future is often more rewarding. Life should be an adventure of growth, anything else is lacking.
Wow, that's a great way of putting it, if you keep that attitude I'm sure you'll reach many places.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:03 pm 
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being able to constantly think this way is one of the major reasons I want to become an attorney
Almost every human on this Earth thinks constantly. I'm under the firm belief thinking all the time is very bad for ones life satisfaction. But to each his own :)
That's true, when you're thinking, you're not acting. So thinking all the time would mean that you're living in a dream world.

You can either live in the past and future, or start living in the now.

I'm not saying don't think at all, because that'll just be stupid, thinking is what makes us human. It's good to think about the consequences of running down a busy highway road. You've got to find the middleground of thinking and acting.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:57 pm 
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being able to constantly think this way is one of the major reasons I want to become an attorney
Almost every human on this Earth thinks constantly. I'm under the firm belief thinking all the time is very bad for ones life satisfaction. But to each his own :)
Should explain Oldman; Hobbit comes from Buddhist Ilk and from that perspective to much theorising can lead to you being entrenched in this world and stuck in "samsahara" (this world which is filled with inevitable pain) . Finding "Zen" (an empty mind) free's the mind from this world... ...it's like a spiritual suicide.

But Hobbit I would point out Nihro was refering to the specefic way that philosophers think.

People who are truly philosophical by nature strive to operate on a highly rational level and they can''t really think like most; becuase as most philosophers have found, our "common" thoughts are riddled with logical inconsistencies and full of contradictions.

And why are we discussing this now???

BACK ON TOPIC :P


Last edited by Fin on Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:27 pm 
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That's true, when you're thinking, you're not acting. So thinking all the time would mean that you're living in a dream world.

You can either live in the past and future, or start living in the now.

I'm not saying don't think at all, because that'll just be stupid, thinking is what makes us human. It's good to think about the consequences of running down a busy highway road. You've got to find the middleground of thinking and acting.
I couldn't agree more, deep thoughts have little to no place when it comes to the action itself. In essence, one should always keep his philosophical thoughts both separate and integrated with rational action. Often we simply do not have the time to analyze a situation before it charges us. In my opinion, you should be able to trust the tenets of personal character provided through philosophy and rational thought to guide you through instinctively. Philosophical dogma comes into play during the calms before and after the storms, so when they do come, you are prepared for whatever life throws at you. I guess this dance is an inherent paradox. An act itself should always be performed without philosophical interest, but philosophical interest should always influence the act. So I guess, in a sense, Buddhism has good points about action. You should be an instinctive void, but philosophy can help you develop this trait.

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