- just because youre taking longer to build confidence does not mean you should turn to alcohol to find confidence. in fact this will simply hinder your progression as you will get very little practice while being soba.

- you say some people take longer and others never get it at all. I believe everyone (and i mean everyone) has it in them, its a matter of developing one's self. if you are able to interact confidently with your mother, you have the ability to do the same with strangers in social situations. there is one main thing that separates confident guys from not so confident guys, and that is that they simply express themselves without holding back one bit, thats all there is to it. They like themselves enough to KNOW that what ever comes out of their mouth will be cool and accepted, and if anyone thinks otherwise then who the fuck cares anyway. there will always be a certain minority that you will fail to impress. ie. you cant please all of the people all the time. so if youre going to piss a few people off anyway, well crikey express yourself to the max and be who you want to be.

Me. I need a "drug" to perform in a social envirnment. My game isn't strong and I have AA when I'm completely sober .

If I've had one too many , it's even worse. A couple loosens me up enough to effectively interect with some balls on me yet not be a total pig/a**hole.

I think moderation is key.

I think maybe I didn't articulate myself clearly enough in the original post.

I still have confidence to approach people when I'm sober - I do day game (though it's not as strong as my bar/club game admittedly), but during day game your energy level can be pretty chilled out in comparison with the set and that'll be totally fine. It's the fucking daytime.

The problem is, when I'm out at NIGHT, all the sets are dancing around and laughing and shit, and so I need to approach with high energy, otherwise how am I gonna be the fun interesting guy they want to be around? In THAT case, I feel that having a drink or two helps me get into the right high-energy state, and into the slightly zany humour zone that I like.

This has nothing to do with my inner confidence. As I said originally, even if I'm with my friends and not drinking, I feel a bit cut off and not at my best or funniest. It's because they're getting into that high energy state, and I'm not; not because I don't have confidence around them.

I also think it's quite condescending for people to be going on about how guys "don't get it" and are "relying on a drug" to perform socially. This is when PUAs get weird man. In all my life I've probably met 2 or 3 people EVER who said they flat out didn't drink. I instantly thought they were fucking strange people. Or maybe recovering alcoholics. The vast majority of people have a few drinks on the weekend, without becoming addicted to alcohol and it ruining their lives. They don't do it because they NEED to drink to have a good time, they do it because they ENJOY IT, and it helps them get into a fun mood. I see nothing wrong with that.

I used to be the stone cold sober guy until my wing said something to me he said "you really should drink, because when girls see a guy who dosen't drink he weirds them out." which is true if you don't drink your not their to have fun your their to take advantage of all the drunk girls a wolf in sheeps skin. So drink loosen up a little, have fun, drink. Just limit yourself alittle keep in control of your frame and lead by emotion not thought. AND DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE!!!

-Vann

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Booze depends entirely one you.

I think of booze in sarging the same way I do booze and driving: if it is not impairing your ability to perform, don't worry about it. You're the only judge for what would be impairing your ability to perform, but if you like, here's a fun chart based on your body mass. ^_^

http://justinsomnia.org/2006/05/how-muc ... d-legally/

Even then, pick-up isn't driving. No one will die if you drink one too many, so consider it a rough guideline, if anything. I'll usually drink three rye-and-cokes over a four hour time period, and given my weight (on an empty stomach), I would be blowing 0.01% to 0.04%.

And I'm fine with that.

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you have an alcohol dependency and this will never change until you start approaching sober. the longer you use it as a crutch, the harder its going to be. you should probably veer away from the idea of gradually building up confidence while on alcohol to the point that you dont need the alcohol anymore, it doesnt work like that. if you have AA when youre sober, there is only one way to conquer it, and that is to do it in a sober state. if you are going to be gaming ONLY when you have alcohol in you and dont feel the need for core confidence, then by all means carry on using it as a crutch. note i am not saying stay sober forever, but merely to take 2-3 months sober and rid your AA good and proper in a natural state.
blondguy i agree with a lot of what you say...however the above statement is contradicting in itself. yes most people drink when theyre out because they ENJOY it, but this is exactly it, they NEED that alcohol in order to enjoy themselves. think about that for a second. (else more people would go out sober and enjoy themselves either way right, so yes they do need it). most of my friends admit that they need to drink at a club else they would be bored out of their minds. it is sad that most people cannot entertain themselves in a sober state in social situations, but like ive said before, it is simply the way we have been conditioned in society. its been the done thing to drink when we're out at a club/social situation for hundreds of years, now take that away from someone and all of a sudden they cant do without it. i know i sounds like im talking alcoholics here but im really not, im talking your average alcohol consumer.

with all due respect i have never heard such a strange theory in all my life. not drinking is (in most cases) a DHV. it shows self control and CORE confidence, she knows that youre not approaching her because youre pissed out of your mind (like every other guy in the club), youre approaching her because you have REAL balls. who told your wing that it weirded girls out? every single girl (including my female friends) ADMIRE it and have admitted that it actually inspires them. why? because it takes self control and natural confidence to pull it off. i think your wing just wants you to be on the same 'vibe' as you mate, it has fuck all to do with girls thinking its 'weird' not to drink. when girls ask i just say im currently on a one month detox, they say wow you must have a lot of will power blahdie blah and its so cool that I dont NEED to drink in order to go out and have fun. i have heard those words more than once, promise.

not drinking is a DHV all round. (in my experience anyway). but dont get me wrong, i do drink! but i mix it up with a few sober nights here and there to make sure my game remains in tact while i am sober. besides, day game is awesome for meeting decent women in a sober state of mind while theyre going about their usual daily routine. if you have no sober game, well i guess you miss out on these opportunities dont you.

Vision I agree with you not drinking is a DHV in most situations, but I ment it's ok to carry the illusion of drinking if your talking to someone and they ask what your drinking you can tell them it's just coke or whatever cuz I'm DD tonight (use this one often) or cuz I just got out of detox and it won't matter ever the pug's carry a drink around thats why they tell you to carry it to your side not as a sheild. No one goes to a bar to meet a strangers unless all they want a certain something. what I ment was if you want to drink drink and have some fun life isn't all about pickup just don't get blaitantly drunk. All the pickup styles are is a basic frame ment to be changed to suit your personal style creating what these pua call natural game. Breaking one rule won't kill you.

-Vann

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I dream of the perfect party

youre 100% correct. the thing is we all learn these skills for different reasons. i for one am not JUST interested in picking up women, but am interested in bettering myself with people in general. as a result i push myself outside my comfort zone at every given opportunity, I will speak to (and tease) girls (and guys) whether im in the supermarket, club or on the beach. my point is that if i was only doing this when i had a few drinks in me in a club, i wouldnt be achieving the goals I am aiming for. i would turn into a club pick up junkie with no real natural people skills at all. get my drift? i personally want to be consistent in every situation i am faced with, clubs are just ONE of those situations.

The most negative aspect IMO of drinking is when you go for a day 2 and you're not exactly sure what the chick looked like or can pick her out in a crowd , or worse yet when you thought she was a solid 8 to 9 & she is really a 6. If you don't mind that or it's worth it go for it. Also when I used canned material I would say some lines that were meant to be cocky & playful teasing or something and just totally come off wrong & you look like an A-hole.

Overall though I enjoy alcohol and it helps my game. I find though there is certainly a threshold point that when you pass it, it affects your game negatively. For me about 4 beers is optimal anything more while I still have a good time and get more bold, it starts affecting my abilities and sharpness to carry a conversation. Very similar to back when I played live music I would need 3 or 4 beers to feel loose enough and kill nerves to play but after about 4 and my skill level deteriorated and I made mistakes.

With anything give and take.

Sometimes I'll go to a venue and it just completely lacks SPAM and puts me out of vibe. If there aren't any girls or enough girls I'm just like fuck this I'm gonna slam a few back.

The other night I got 5 numbers completely sober. I was completely in state.

Usually if I'm out, I don't have more than three drinks. I'm bipolar and get really depressed the next day if I drink too much.

The same people that say to go out to bars sober say to drink a diet coke with a lime. This completely lacks organization lol. I guess I'll fix it later.

I usually smoke in the parking lot before I go in somewhere. Keeps me in a stable state.

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ITS YOUR CHOICE!
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The professionals are not exactly right though.

Who here would love to be Gambler? This guy breathes and lives game - is that how you want to be?

I think we disagree on this topic Fin although I respect what you're saying as I've read some great posts from you, but what I think is that game should not always be first in your life.

I went out on Saturday for a night with the lads and enjoyed myself, and I couldn't have given a fuck about girls. Can Gambler honestly say he ever does that, as he feels 'obliged' to approach girls (his own quote)?

Being sober and gaming is quite a controversial topic I think - is it really morally right to get with a girl when she is drunk and you're sober - no matter how drunk? If not, where do you draw the line? When she can't walk? When she's slurring her words?

I don't think it is. True, alcohol never stopped anyone doing anything they didn't want to, but it influenced them, and capitalising on this could easily be seen as taking advantage.

Another reason is not really controversial, but if you're a guy and you're with a load of drunks, it really isn't that fun, no matter how chilled or calm or collected you are. I find that a few beers and a few when I'm out act as tolerance juice; alcohol that helps you tolerate drunk people and find their drunken unfunny jokes funny, but not enough alcohol so you don't know what you're doing. Tipsy you could say.

Tolerance juice also calms the nerves - I suppose it's what some people would say is a 'social crutch' - but do I really care? The hardest part of getting into a girl is the approach, and if on a night out alcohol can help me with that, and help me have a better time with my drunken friends; do I really care what the professionals, or what anyone else thinks? I may not become a 'mpua' but like I said earlier; who would want to be an mpua?

The answer is definitely not me, and drinking alcohol whilst gaming is perfectly fine.

Yes it is exactly that, a social crutch IF you require it in order to approach women.

Here's the thing Trixsta, do you only want to be able to approach and meet new people (male and female) ONLY when youve got your 'tolerence juice' in you? Dont you want to be able to have enough core confidence to do that where ever you are? if you say no I dont believe you , because not wanting to improve as person is just pure denial, its in our blood to want to develop and experience personal growth.

So assuming you want to improve yourself (you clearly do else you wouldnt be here), now its all up to whether you are willing to go that extra mile to develop yourself into this 'new you' but that doesnt need social crutches any more. I for one love meeting people wherever I go....I dont understand why someone would want to limit their gaming location to a dark night club, and not just that, but also being dependent on having alcohol in ones system. I mean you cant walk around typsey everywhere you go right? Learn to develop the state that you are mostly in. ie. sober. You will find the guys that are really good with women are able to work their magic without alcohol, im not saying they dont drink, but they can clean up while being sober....because they are being the real 'THEM', and this shines through.

And yes it really IS ok to drink and game as you have said...but if you really want to transform yourself and develop real confidence, do so soba until youre at a point where the alcohol is not being used as a crutch anymore. It will improve many more areas of your life than just approaching women. In addition to that, there is no point in being your 'smooth' and tipsey self in the club only to be a socially shy individual when out on a date with her (unless youre swigging from a hip flask before your date arrives...sounds bad doesnt it, it is.).

And I agree that gaming should certainly not BE your life, but socializing to me plays a HUGE part of it (i love people) and a portion of that socializing involves meeting women. To be good with women you need to be good with people, and you dont need alcohol to be good with people.

My problem isn't with it hindering development, my problem is that if it DOES become a social crutch, then you've become dependant on it, and that can lead very easily to ful lblown alcohlism.

You don't actually need to get hammered consistently to be an alcoholic. The important thing to watch out for is that you are using alcohol to help you perform a simple task in your life.

Back in HS everyone got drunk all the time, that was practically the only thing you could do that far north in scotland at that age. But only 2 of the people I knew who did that actually develpoed alcoholism.

The real danger is not "I'm getting smashed"... it is "Jesus all these people, man I think I need some drink to loosen up and get rid of some nerves" or "woah, monday morning.... I need an eye opener"... "I feel shit, how could she leave me.... I'm going to get a drink"

It's not about the amount neccessarily and this is definatly not about whether it will impede your development because that's fucking moronic to be thinking like that when it comes to alcohol.

The issue is dependancy and using alcohol to perform a social activity, becuase that behaviour can cross over and lead you to a place where you need alcohol.

I know that is a bit of a slippery slope fallacy for some, but like it or not, that's a really common way that alcoholism can develope.

Insecure and shy people drinking so that they can socialise with others, then developing a dependancy and then addiction as a result of that; is a fairly common story when it comes to alchoholism.

People are being fairly namby pamby about this whole deal going... "oh but you won't be able to work without it"

I'm going to take a stronger stance and be a bit more upfront.

If you drink while you're out, that's fine! but drinking with the intention to help loosen you up for socialising, is a bad idea.... why?

Alcohol dependancy can fuck up your entire life.

To be fair I think in some parts of the UK you do need to drink to enjoy yourself!

Personally I only drink a lot if it's exclusively a lads' night and I take it steady if I'm out looking to pull. However if you are going to a club alcohol can be a good standby, if you're not getting any joy I always find that getting hammered can help because you enjoy yourself anyway without caring if you pull, and sometimes it does take away any lingering doubts or insecurities you have.

I agree that naturals and people who are supremely confident can always be successful without needing to drink but I never write off alcohol, sometimes getting a bit tipsy has helped me have the guts to express my true self and meet people and if you're new to gaming it can give you a slight morale boost in the early stages.

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If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always gotten...