Well it seemed to be worth a reply from yourself didn't it.
I think we are all aware of this, no-one mentioned that anything had been scientifically proven. This thread is merely a discussion consisting of view points and ideas.
You make valid points, thank you for your view on the matter.

WE DO LIVE IN PACKS!

sociology: the scientific study of society..
has proven this...

You believe you are more complicated than a wolf, yet am sure you know nothing of the wolf..
(making a point.)

Don't comment if you just going to negitivly take away without adding..
thats called a leach..

read richard darkins... robbin baker and many ther books on this subject like the best do:deangelo, mystery,style...

silly boy..

reactionz

Yes, I was kind of harsh on that post. Thats because I'm a douchebag. I'm not apologizing.

You are right, I know nothing about wolfs. I dont need to. If you belive we live in packs, I'm no one to question your belive system. I just disagree with that statement. And serously dude, humans are more complicated than wolfs, I think almost everybody would agree with that. (Almost... because there's always someone that doesnt...I told you, humans are more complicated that wolfs)

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"[Cool is] a heavily manipulative corporate ethos. ”
Kalle Lasn

"Motherfuckers best belive in....That you are fucking with the best" - 3oh!3

Teasing is a battle plan for what Shakespeare called “the merry war.”

The problem with forums like this one is that people can easly be misunderstood.

In absolute terms, humans are not that different from animals, or not, it isnt really important. Who is right is not the point here.

When I read the original post, I felt that Reactionz was taking the "alpha male" metaphor a little bit to literally. When someone uses a metaphor, its not to show how things are, the goal is to explain how the whole thing comes down.

There are some commonalities between human groups and animal packs.

Reactionz first post was about an "X factor" that alphas and betas have.

I belive that they share the same desirable traits that females are attracted to. We know them as the alpha male characteristics. Characteristics.

If you go out to a club tonight, and if you ask random women who do they think is the alpha male, or the guy with the most value, you wont get an answer (They would laugh). They tend to choose higher value men because there are emotional and evolutionary mechanisms that make them go after guys that have alpha traits.

I was a jerk about this thread because I cant conceive how a dude might get into a situation like the one you were describing.

Now that I think about it, the only scenario that I can think of is this one:

Some guy is picking up some girls. He establishes that he is the alpha guy. The beta guy walks in and ultimately gets the girls. The alpha guy sleeps alone.

When that happens in the Animal planet, they say "Now the beta becomes the alpha dog". Maybe that answers your original question.

Hope that this covers it all.

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"[Cool is] a heavily manipulative corporate ethos. ”
Kalle Lasn

"Motherfuckers best belive in....That you are fucking with the best" - 3oh!3

Teasing is a battle plan for what Shakespeare called “the merry war.”

Well depends what kind of Beta you are ,

Think along the lines of Being a Jack of All Trades ;]

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Sympathy For the Devil .

I'm just going to put this out there and see how y'all react:

No two people find the same traits equally attractive.

I realize that this is a little revolutionary, that it flies in the face of the things we are taught by the pick-up community as a unit, but I think that there's a case to be made for it. I don't find conventionally pretty girls as attractive as many people. They're nice to look at, but I weigh physical appearance a lot lower on my Things That Are Attractive scale than many of the men I've spoken to. I find other things in a woman far more attractive than many men (I won't be getting into the specifics, but "ferocity" is a good start).

I'd rather fuck Natalie Portman than Meagan Fox. I'd fuck them _both_, don't get me wrong, but if I had to choose, I'd go with the Harvard grad over the "hottest woman in Hollywood," any day. I think it's safe to assume many of you would not make the same choice.

So what does this have to do with anything?

There are women who find attributes typically associated with Alpha Traits particularly attractive. They love a man who takes charge, makes decisions, _runs_ things. There are women who find many Alpha Traits repugnant (I have met, befriended, and fucked a few of them). There are women who value appearance above any other quality (a buddy of mine tends to attract those ones; I'm not exactly pretty). There are women who couldn't give a lesser fuck about what a dude looks like. There are women who value possessions above any other quality. There are women who just want a man who pays his rent on time. There are women who actually, truly value Nice Guy Traits above any other quality. Those women should be treasured.

Learning which qualities your target desires is insanely important, and if you assume that "All of the women that I want will desire _these exact_ qualities," you're putting yourself into a strange little box. Value Elicitation routines exist for a reason; you want to figure out the value your target puts on certain qualities so that you can show her how you match or exceed her expectations for those qualities (through DHVs and suchlike). If the qualities she gives you while you Elicit Values don't match up to Alpha Traits, it's a waste of your time and energy trying to display both the traits she's interested in and the traits of an Alpha Male.

Instead, I suggest flexibility. Learn the judo of words, and find ways to work the qualities she most desires into your interaction. In this way, you will achieve great victory.

_________________
Repent now and save 50% on your next divine judgment.
-Monkey's Little Brother, Spud

i agree that certain women do value nice guy traits...but its not common. and why 'treasure' these women? they are just humans with unique desires just like any other.

back to your initial point...these women are normally the alpha females that enjoy being in charge. a nice guy's traits are normally very feminine....which is why your girly/feminine type girls avoid the nice guy and go for the bad boy with more masculine traits. i believe it has to do with the sexuality spectrum, you will in most cases want the complete polar opposite to what you are. i see myself as fairly alpha in my group/work place etc. and i am attracted to the shy/innocent girly girl. loud and confident girls dont do it for me, they remind me too much of... me. i.e male! (if that makes sense). i have a quiet/shy guy friend who has been dating an extremely dominant female (in fact they now married)...she wears the pants and he is completely ok with it. HOWEVER, this relationship is more the exception than the norm. put out a global survey and you will quickly see that the majority of women are attracted to dominant alpha traits rather than nice guy feminine traits.
do you realize that you are allowing her to take you into her own reality rather than her into yours. this statement above shows that you are VALIDATING yourself to her based on what SHE wants to hear. it should be the other way round, its called shaping ie. she qualifies herself to YOU based on your hints of what YOU want to hear, and then YOU decide whether SHE meets YOUR criteria or not. dont go around trying to meet her criteria, rather go around finding girls that meet yours.

also, value elicitation routines are not for finding out what SHE desires so that you can bend your personality to meet those traits/desires (the flexibility that you mention), it is so that you get to know about HER as a person in order for YOU to validate whether she meets YOUR criteria or not. im sure you can see that i believe your framing should be switched around 180 degrees.

lets say a girl tells me that she doesnt like the outdoors, well when she asks me about my interests im not going to tell her that i only enjoy indoor activities purely to satisfy her criteria....im going to tell her how much shes missing out on by NOT experiencing outdoor activities and make it clear that i fucking love them! all of a sudden outdoor activities are not that bad anymore and by the end of the conversation she has magically come to like outdoor activities...and even though she doestn really and is just saying this to meet your criteria. (you get my drift)

I always rock out a more beta style of game, the whole alpha thing is one part of a bigger thing. Think of it like tinsel on a christmas tree, not essential but makes it look better.

Personally I find it easier to go about my business under the radar, kinda be invisible around the club until I start collecting ladies, then there are a lot of confised meatheads

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Troll the trolls
free book http://www.4shared.com/file/123140320/b ... ndows.html

Monkey, dude, you fucking told it all.

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"[Cool is] a heavily manipulative corporate ethos. ”
Kalle Lasn

"Motherfuckers best belive in....That you are fucking with the best" - 3oh!3

Teasing is a battle plan for what Shakespeare called “the merry war.”

They should be treasured for the same reason any other rare thing is treasured: they're rare. ^_^
While much of your argument is based on broad hyperbole and generalizations, I think this statement in particular smashes the point home. There is absolutely no basis for this argument beyond the anecdotoal, yet you assert it to be _fact_. When someone publishes a peer reviewed academic research paper on the topic of attraction, one that shows how different qualities are valued by a representative sample of women, we can talk broad generalizations. Until then, you're asserting a belief, one that I think is fundamentally flawed.

Also, to equate Nice Guy traits with femininity hurts my anthropology brain.
No, you're being a manipulative little fuck, and I applaud you for it. You're not bending your personality to display the traits she finds attractive; you already have the traits she finds attractive. What you're doing instead is _displaying_ those traits, showing her that you meet or exceed her requirements for "person I will shag."

If she says she hates the outdoors, and you happen to love the outdoors, I'm not suggesting that you should hide the fact that you love the outdoors. Superficial things like that are worked around easilly enough (I have a post in the wayback machine that discusses emotional resonance; it's a good post, and talks about why a woman will "magically come to like the outdoors" because you do; hint: it has nothing to do with "taking her into your reality"). A dislike of the outdoors is not something she requires from a mate; it's a superficial personality trait that, honestly, means nothing at all. Such narrow traits rarely enter into the attractiveness of a person.

Instead, a trait like "active," does. It doesn't really matter _how_ you're active, but if a girl wants an active guy, you need to be able to show that you meet that criteria, be that outdoors or in. That trait's polar opposite, "laid back" can be equally (or more!) attractive to a different woman, and you need to be able to show how you meet _that_ criteria, too. I am both active and laid back; I'm certain you are too. The question is not "Do I bend my personality to have these qualities?" but instead "How do I show that I already possess these qualities?"
I always do, sir.

I always do.

_________________
Repent now and save 50% on your next divine judgment.
-Monkey's Little Brother, Spud

Sorry, didnt have time to read whole thread. But IMO beta males get beta females only because beta females think they cant keep alpha males, because they are "too good for them".

This is indirectly related to the topic but I think it can contribute something to this discussion.

IMHO, being alpha male is not an end on itself. Xxxx Xxxx was probably an alpha male:

-he was leader of men,

-protector of his loved ones: he wanted "vital space" for his beloved race,

-he was willing to emote: his speeches were clealry quite emotional and passionate.

-had ultimate social proof

-I don't know about his preselection, but you get the idea.

Yes, this man was Adolph Hitler.
What I am pointing to: woman, specially the most intelligent of them, are not going to feel attracted to someone just because of his sheer alpha traits. intelligent women (and intelligent people in general), are not total slaves of their genetic programming. She might have ethics in a very high regard, and that doesnt mean that she doesnt like alpha males. It is just that she is not an idiot.
On the other hand, there are and there have been so many "betas" who have made enormous contributions to the good of humanity. I think of van Gogh, for instance, a man who suffered so much in life and who might be clearly labeled as a beta according to our standards. I also think of Stephen Hawking, he is a total beta (except that he is a scientific leader).
I think of George Bush , Osama bin Laden, Stalin. Werent they alpha males?
So, guys, I am afraid being an "alpha" male is not enough to be real man. You have to become a valuable human being too, or at least try not to be an idiot. And if you are an alpha, but you are also an idiot , and you "are not apologizing" about it, I wholeheartedly hope you die, and the sooner, the better.

it would take a fairly long post to comment on every point above that I dont agree with, I agree with some of what you say but most of it is based around validating yourself to her by 'displaying' traits that you THINK she is interested in. I repeat, rather look for a girl that meets YOUR desirable taits, you will save yourself a lot of time! and you say that you 'already' have those traits and its just a matter of displaying....you will never have all the traits that any girl out there wants, so how do you mean you already have them? im not going to pretend i have traits to prove to her that we're a good match. it sounds like you base your entire match-make upon HER desires rather than yours. your framing is backward.



This comment really does show that you have misunderstood me, completely. I really do not see how being manipulative has anything to do with what I said. And even if it did, dnfluence is a good thing my friend, as long as both parties are happy with the outcome and the interaction was not dishonest and unethical. You are simply leading, if she is happy to be led then you are doing her good.
Its called shaping, she will start trying to agree with you and 'create' commonalities based on YOUR interests. she is trying to match up to YOUR desirable traits. i think youre reading a liiittle too much into the initial point i was trying to convey.

This was going to turn into a novel, so here are the quicknotes:

Every man on the planet (and every woman, for that matter) has in some degree or another _every_ attractive (and unattractive) personality trait in the wide spectrum of personality traits. Dependant entirely on the situation, you can be aggressive or passive, a leader or a follower, adventrous or responsible, powerful or weak. We've all been in situations where these personality qualities have shown through, and we can all tell stories that prove that we have these qualities in a way that does not come across as braggodacio. You don't need to pretend; you've got it already. That thing about you being the prize? You possess within you every attractive personality trait! You're the fucking prize!

I was not calling you, Mr. Visionxxxxxx, a manipulative fuck. I was calling people like myself, people who use a woman's own values of attraction to win her into their beds manipulative little fucks. As you say, so long as everyone is bettered by the interaction, there is no harm in manipulation. ^_^

I don't do much "shaping," in my pick-up. Instead, I use emotional resonance to create points of deep rapport very quickly; that rapport is based not on shared interests, but instead on shared emotions evoked by (usually) different activities (or, much more occasionally, similar activities). The things don't matter, the emotions behind them do.

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Repent now and save 50% on your next divine judgment.
-Monkey's Little Brother, Spud