Being obsessed with Mystery Method has made you myopic. Value is only 1/4 or 1/5 of what actually matters here. Sexualization is just another component of game, but it's one that trumps the value component by far. Understanding how you are attracted to women may give you some insight as to how women could be attracted to you, but there is definitely a different dynamic to it.

Really, I don't know what planet you live on, my friend Planet of desperate women? I regularly go out to London pubs, nightclubs, etc, and I have witnessed extremes mb 2-3 times only. And never in my life have I seen an ugly dude make out with an HB. If an ugly guy is just chatting up HB and she is friendly with him, that does not mean, that she is sexually attracted to him. They might be colleagues, ex-classmates, brother and sister, gay friend and a girl... Attractive girls tend to be very friendly and social while having friendly and flirty chat (even with a stranger), but when it comes to sexual part, they are not interested.

I agree, that there are movies like 'Hitch' about fat loser who eventually seduces HB10 after taking dating doctors advice. But movies are not real life.
I disagree. There is no way that you can TEACH someone wit and charisma. I agree, that many people (many, but not majority) have it concealed deep inside, but are too insecure and shy to demonstrate these traits when needed. PU does teach one to get rid of these insecurities. Let's say, it gives someone 'kick' to go there and do it. That's true. But you can't teach a guy to be funny and charismatic in case he does not have it in him.
Like I said previously - 'keep trying' has nothing to do with PU. PUA promise to teach you to attract women, that you want. And that's when bullshit kicks in. At first they teach you to attract women and then they say 'if it does not work, then try again'. There are definetly girls out there, who will like you for who you are. Then why the hell is PU needed, when it comes to attempt count and 'machine-gun theory'?
You see, that IS my point. A girl is either attracted or not. When she is attracted, there will be no shit tests (maybe few), she won't care much about 'mistakes' you made (e.g. calling too soon, buying drink), she will laugh at your jokes, even if they are not funny and she will keep up the conversation herself, etc.

Yes, you may say, that all that is achievable - but probability of eventual attraction is miserable, maybe 1%. If a girl isn't attracted, she is also unlikely to waste her time on you and even give you a chance. And like you said earlier - if a girl does not like you, why waste your time and efforts? While there are girls out there, who will like you for who you are...

im gonna jump in here and give my experiences.

while i was in secondary school, the best looking boy and girl went out with each other. they've since broken up and she is now with a average guy and he is with a HB8. this is the only time ive ever seen known of to very good looking people go out together, however, im not saying it doesnt happen.

through college and in my first year of university, i noticed HB with fairly normal looking blokes and good looking blokes with average looking girls. i think this is the norm. at the end of the day everyone is attracted to different types.

now onto me. i was probably a 5 (max) looks wise before, but now that ive sorted out my image (which has improved my confidence) id say im proably a bit above average. ive had quite a few HB give me little smiles this last week (havent had the balls to talk to them yet mind).

This is SUCH BAD ADVICE. Why are you even on this forum?

The WHOLE POINT of PU is proving wrong the fallacy that "if she's not instantly attracted to you, or you're not already hot enough, nothing will ever happen." That's complete bullshit! PU teaches us, amongst other things, that there are techniques that we can use to help spark and build attraction with complete strangers who have just met us. Now, of course, if you are very good looking or naturally very charismatic, then you need to do a lot less to spark that attraction, maybe even just going up and saying hi is enough, but if you are not, then these techniques such as using opinion openers, being cocky/funny, using negs, building rapport and comfort, using kino, etc. if used correctly, can turn an average or even below average looking guy into a confident and fun person who will get women that may be far above his "league". I truly believe that, even if I haven't had a huge amount of success as of yet. At least I'm trying, and giving advice to people that I think is psychologically based and well founded. You're just tearing people down and trying to dash the hopes of guys who want to improve and learn, and that's more than unhelpful, it's disheartening and cruel.

I think maybe you should listen to him...

I wrote that original post in a real state and, thankfully, the discussion has gone a lot further past the points there. Secondly, I was talking about my own, unique disappointment and failure, and was looking for people's advice and also someone to defend PU as a way of doing things. Many people did do that, and I'm much more positive now. But the post I was reacting against above is not saying "I failed" or "he failed", at which point you can look at the specifics of what one person did to see what they might have done wrong and help them improve, he's saying "all PU for everyone ultimately fails" unless you are already super hot. That's the negativity I'm fighting against.

I am this forum, because sometimes, only sometimes, there is some good and useful stuff here.

I am not being cruel, I am just telling the truth (and you started this whole thread). Living on dreams and illusions is cruel. I would say it's rather masochistic.

PU claims, that "even getting 1 girl is an improvement". But my point is, that ANYONE can get a one HB at one point in his life without reading any books or attending seminars. These aren't even my words - 90% of PUA material says 'keep trying and it will pay off eventually'. But, hell, I doubt that people buy a book or go through an expensive bootcamp to learn something they already know.

If I were the moderator, Id close this topic about now.

All points have been voiced, there is no "need" for the beating to go on.

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Back, starting over as of 2012.

I am not gonna go over each point and discuss. The only thing I can say is that I even think you are lying on purpose to discourage people to use PUA material to pickup women. I think you know very well how to pickup women but the more men learn how to pickup, the more competition you have and that scares you. If you have the guts to tell me that most of the couples consist of a good looking man and a good looking girl, than you are just plain lying. I already told you that I travelled the whole world and I saw many hot women with very ugly men. If you tell me this is not true, then you are just plain lying.

During my life I dated women that I attracted instantly. They just looked at me and wanted to date me. I also dated women that initially weren't attracted to me. But because of the way I behaved they got interested in me and suddenly they were attracted to me. Attraction is not something that has to be there the first few seconds you meet each other. Also me, I met sometimes girls for which I didn't really feel attraction in the beginning. But then, suddenly, for a reason I don't know and I can't explain this feeling suddenly changed and I was attracted to them. This sudden flip in feeling is what PUA tries to teach. No way you are gonna tell me that this doesn't exist. It exists because I experienced it even myself.

Charisma can be teached. As I already told you, charisma is equal to behaviour. Being fun can be teached. Being funny can be teached. Being cool can be teached. Story telling can be teached. Being C&F can be teached. You can't teach to become tall or handsome but you can teach behaviour. Don't tell me the bs that you can't teach this. Since I am reading about PUA I changed my behaviour and I am having succes with it. Of course some people are still going to be more charismatic than others. But that doesn't matter. Just look at yourself and get the best out of you.

And yes, if a girl is initially attracted it is much easier for you. I already admitted that. But I state it again, the purpose of PUA is to pickup women who aren't initially attracted. There are women out there that when they see you, they didn't really notice you because you are not part of the 1 % hottest guys in the room. So you have to make sure they notice you and see some other interesting qualities you have. If you don't look like Brad Pit but are an average looking guy they still are going to listen to you and if you show them some interesting qualities then they still might go out with you. PUA teaches how to achieve this. I don't think the succes rate is 1 %. You are way to pessimistic.

I am still suspicious about your motives though. Anyone who applied some of these techniques can feel that they work better than when they were using their own methods.