I totally don't agree with the negative attitude of people towards the pickup community. Of course they are trying to sell their stuff. Of course you are not gonna pickup all the girls you approach when you use their material. But is that really our goal ? The goal should be to pickup as many girls as possible given your current limitations. Get the best out of you, that is what it is all about.

The techniques in the community do work. Let's give an example. The MM uses following to acctract HB10's. Open a HB7-8, game her and then with this girl on your arm you open HB10. Though this might seem a disgraceful tactic on the one hand, on the other hand this is just pure genious. I know for sure that this (PRESELECTION) is a great tactic, though I never used it. The reason for this is that I experienced in real life that if 1 girl starts to show interest in me, suddenly 4-5 other girls look to be interested too. Another thing that people talk about in the community is BEING FUN. This works for 100 %. Girls go nuts when they see guys having fun. I experienced that too.The COCKY AND FUNNY concept from David D does work. Whenever I try it on a girl, the girl just starts seeking for my approval and her bitch shield is immediately destroyed.

I can continue to enumerate the list of all that the PUA community tries to teach us and it does work because I tried it. But never think that e.g. with being C&F you are going to attract all the girls in the world. Some girls just hate guys who try to be C&F. It is as simple as that. But that doesn't mean that the concept is useless.

My belief is that everyone should have a deep look in the material of the PUA community and find those pieces that are congruent with his personality. Me, in real life, I am a little bit cocky and quit funny. So for me, the C&F concept is perfectly congruent with my personality. But I never used this in real life because I didn't realize that you could attract women by being a bit of a funny asshole. Now, I know, and so I use C&F. Other people might be less cocky but are better in telling stories. Thanks to the PUA community they know that they have to put DHV's in their stories like preselection, caring for the loved ones, being adventurous, ..... Those might have been telling numeruous stories that just didn't trigger any attraction switches. Now, they now better. And I can continue and continue and continue in this way.

To conclude, no matter which personality fits you best and which material you are using, there is 1 thing that should always be present in any of your interactions:

CONFIDENCE !!!!!

You cannot fake to be confident. I don't know how girls can sense this but you just can't fake confidence with them. They can see right through you. No technique will work if you don't feel confident. So if nothing has ever worked for you, than WORK ON YOUR INNER CONFIDENCE before you start sarging. Without knowing him as a person I am 100 % convinced that the person that started this thread lacks any kind of CONFIDENCE. Because if he is using the material and he would feel confident, he would have succes.

MM is based on sexual selection actually, its not assumptions

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Some very valuable points made here. PUA changes the way you observe the world and your life completely. Like a drug or alcohol.

So, if you get the girl - oh, "this stuff does work, my game was cool, look at me, yadda yadda...". If she rejects you - "oh, I was too lazy, need to do more work, improve, yadda yadda, yadda yadda, bullshit...".

This does sound ridiculous. Especially when you read this discussion board and 80% of users are typing pretty much same lines. Reminded me of christian forums, where every counter-argument against God existense was met with "You just don't believe enough yet" sentence said by different people.

I totally agree - PUA does teach some valuable stuff:
- kino (I often observe a couple on a date with zero kino involved);
- cocky & funny;
- how to be in control;
- how NOT to be boring;

But come on - you do not need to "brand" this stuff as something exclusive and sell it. It's like going to North Pole, putting snow into a bucket and selling it to local escimos.

I have 1 question for you. How do you explain all these couples in which the female is extremely attractive but the guy quit to extremely ugly ?

Another thing I once read is that women are in general better looking than men because of the evolutionary pressure there is on women to be hot because if you aren't hot men don't want you. There is a reason why men are less good looking than women. For me the reason is that women look at other qualities than just the looks. Do you have another reason for that ?

I know a quit fat guy who isn't good looking but I see him always with an extremely attractive woman. How does he does that ? It has to be the things he says. If he would make public the stuff he says, don't you think that if you just apply it, you would be succesfull too ?

Frankly speaking, I rarely see couples like that. There might be plenty of explanations, that have nothing to do with PUA:

- The unattractive guy has money;
- The attractive girl has low self-esteem;
- The girl is an escort;

More positive explanations:

- The fat guy has natural charisma, that only few are born with;
- The fat guy has extremely good sense of humor and is simply fun to be with;

You see, PUA is one of many ways to get women. But it won't work every time - ALL women are different. ALL women have different priorities and values, different senses of humor and personalities. Hell , for an average joe PUA tactics work only 1 out of 10 times.

Imagine paying 600£ for a bootcamp, where somebody actually tells you "Buy Bentley or become bodybuilder and women will start approaching you themselves". But it's true, that if you do buy a fancy car or start working out like a madman. It WILL get you more women.

The same applies to PUA. There are no golden rules. PUA tries to put everything that happens in a man-woman approach/date/relationship into their template which is completely wrong.

For example, they say that you shouldn't ever pay for a girl. What's the big deal? I bought girl a drink two weeks ago in the nightclub and she was hanging out with me all night long. Not because I bought her a cocktail or did not buy one - because she was attracted to me.

Or 3-day no-call rule. I called after 3 days and a girl did not remember who I was and I called another girl the very next day and she suggested date herself. Because the latter was attracted. The first one was not.

Or buying gifts and flowers. I used to date a girl who worked as a clerk in a gift shop. People were buying her huge teddy bears at least once a day and she did not care. But when I gave her flowers or some tiny vidget from one pound store she was going crazy. Because she was attracted to me.

You see, every strategy, not only negs and canned routines may bring harvest.

Every time somebody tells his story in newbie forum, people tell him "now that was your mistake". And there is rarely any mistake. What might have been curse with one girl, might be blessing with another one.

I think this is terrible advice. You're basically saying that PU can only help those people who are already attractive or rich or have natural charisma. That's bullshit. Some of the best PUAs are fucking ugly or short or fat or bald or whatever, but they don't have any limiting beliefs about themselves. One of the first bits of advice any method will give you is to not worry about how successful or rich or handsome you are, women care much more about qualities that anyone can work on - confidence, posture, humour, showing high status, and that anyone can build attraction through those.

Exactly what I was saying.

Some of the best PUAs, at one point, were heavy AFCs. Like insane losers.

I like the "don't worry about money" one.

My parents have always stressed "Oh, well a girl won't STAY with you if you have money"

People just want to be happy, there are other things other than money that breeds happiness.

And, if a girl only wants to stay with me because of my money, or bases the relationship MORE on money than my qualities, I don't even want that type of woman.

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THIS USER HAS BEEN BANNED FOR BREAKING RULES 2, 3, 8, AND 9

I haven't seen fucking ugly PUAs. I've seen ugly people who claimed to be PUAs, but that was just their way to make money and sell their material. Never seen any live action videos of them. Have you seen any of these "fucking ugly" PUAs in action?
One might argue about Neil Strauss... However, I've seen this guy on TV. He's is not a model, but he definetly looks good (got perfect smile) and has loads of charisma. And come on - the guy's been with top idol celebrities like Marilyn Manson and Motley Crue, just hanging out with them backstage is enough to give someone a boost in popularity.

Confidence, posture and humour alone work with 10-20% success rate. And come on - PUA's "Keep trying" line always killed me... Every ape knows that machine-gun theory always works. If somebody gets a hot girl after 100 rejections - that has little to do with PUA and self-improvement - most likely it means being in the right place at the right time.

Do not get me wrong - I am not 100% against seduction community. I am just confirming that PU is mostly based on hypocricy and lies with few useful points and advices in it.

Ross Jeffries may not be a deformed hunchback, but he is definitely NOT attractive, yet he's an absolute legend in the PU community. And anyway, my point isn't so much that physical attractiveness doesn't help or isn't a factor, of course it is. My point is that one of the important things PU teaches you (and there are many studies that confirm this) is that women care less than men about physical attractiveness, instead they value alpha male characteristics such as value, confidence, intelligence and humour - all things that can be learned and improved upon. I think it's very negative to say that most of the rAFCs out there are doomed because they'll never have the looks or the wealth, it's totally missing the point and fundamentally misguided.

What? Do you actually believe that? Allow me to reframe your brain in a more useful direction.

Women love sex.

A dick in a woman's vagina will still feel good if the owner of that dick is ugly, broke, or both.

Ugly? You can still rock a woman's world in bed, and therefore you can communicate and/or subcommunicate that, meaning that you can use game successfully.

Broke? Same shit. You just can't buy her a drink and stuff like that. As RSD's Tyler Durden said, if you can't do anything because you're broke, the only thing you CAN do is pick up chicks.

If you ARE broke, though, you have bigger problems than women, and you should find a way to make a living for yourself.

Yes, I agree with you, but, at least for me, sex is psychological.

It will take me 5 hours to get off on a fat chick/ boring chick. But pussy is pussy, right?

No, I don't agree.

We all have the same dicks (theoretically speaking), but a girl will want a dick inside her from a guy who has higher value.

It's like people who drink half a cup of beer and act drunk - it's psychological.

Tori Black (One of the sexiest girls in porn) would get me off in 2 minutes, but a fat old granny across the street... I wouldn't even think of it.

So, ultimately, girls are about VALUE.

Looks aren't important not because "all dicks feel the same", it's because the dicks she prefers to take contain value.

I know what you mean, but I'm just trying to clarify it for the other members.

Also, looks are a face value setter.

Meaning, first impressions usually set the ground work for things to come.

Looks don't make you attractive, you make you attractive by your words, looks, social proofing, and social value amongst other things.

To some girls, those fat guys are MORE ATTRACTIVE because of their personalities and/or money than the broke model next door.

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I started going out drinking in pubs at the age of 17 (a year too early, I know that's naughty).
In the 23 years since, I have never once seen an ugly dude in an intimate situation with a hot woman. Not once.
I believe it happens on occasion, where power and status is involved, though I've only seen that with my own eyes in the celebrity world. (only on tv)
How often have I read or heard people say that a short, fat, ugly guy can learn to pick up hot women? Hundreds of times.
But where are they? Am I living on the wrong planet or what?

Actually, in my school, I see it ALL the time.

Actually, I have yet to see an attractive guy with an attractive girl more than maybe 3 times in my entire life?

I'd have to say THIS only happens in movies where everything is perfect.

Girls base their likings on a guy almost 99% on pure value, not looks.

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THIS USER HAS BEEN BANNED FOR BREAKING RULES 2, 3, 8, AND 9

EXTREMELY valid point.
Go ahead and scroll up to the top of the webpage and just examine the "featured posters":Gambler, Adam Lyons, Sinn, Carlos Xuma, etc. Are they ugly? Are they introverts? No, but did they work just as hard to portray (whether or not they actually achieved) success? Absolutely, atleast in our minds

And what is the secret to everyone elses success?

http://despair.com/secret.html

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"That's some bad hat, Harry"...

<<<<<See that profile picture?
i SWEAR thats not me

Euhm ok, that is so not true. I have travelled around the world and I have seen this phenomenon everywhere. I am not saying that I never saw a couple in which both persons are good looking. That does exist. But I saw many many couples where the girl was gourgeous and the guy was just plain ugly. This summer I have even seen extremes. I saw several extremely hot women with the most ugly and bad dressed nerds I have ever seen.
I will only focus on the positive explanations. Yes, natural charisma and sense of humor, fun to be with. All these ingredients are what the PUA tries to teach you. They try to teach you how to become a more charismatic person. Of course, some people are born with them, others not. But fortunately, charisma is something that can be taught. It is not like looks. If you are ugly than there is nothing you can do. But charisma is just a way of behaving. People can teach behaviour. Some do have to put more effort in it than others but it is definitely something that can be thaught.
PUA is not ONE of the many ways. PUA is a collection of many different ways on how to pickup a lady. True, all women are different. One thing may work on woman A but not on woman B. That I already said in a previous post. You should read the PUA materials and find those ingredients that are congruent with your personality. Find those things and work on them such that you can give a better, cooler and more attractive display of the person you really are. Don't try to be someone you are not. And if you are capable of selecting the necessary pieces to better highlight your personality, if a girl than doesn't want you, no big deal because you don't match. If she doesn't like who you are, you don't need to waste your time on her. Go find someone else with your new skillset.
I would never pay such an amount of money for a bootcamp. I agree that people offering those bootcamps are just trying to make money out of the misery of people.
PUA never said that you don't need to buy a drink for a girl. As far as I recall you should never pay a drink before she has given you a significant amount of IOI's. She has to show you first that she is attracted to you. If she gives those signs, then you can offer her a drink. In your case, she was attracted right away so buying a drink isn't going to ruin your game. But try to buy a drink for a girl that isn't attracted initially. Most of the times you will get shot down. Very rarely it might happen that a girl that didn't like you initially and you bought a drink, but you could still manage to get the girl. Does that mean that buying a drink before there is attraction is a good thing to do ? So if in 1 % of the cases you managed to get the girl by buying her a drink immediately while the girl wasn't attracted initially, does that make the 'not-buy-a-drink'-theory false ? Are we going to shoot down a theory because there are some exceptions on it ? Picking up is not rocket science. It may even depend on the mood of the girl whether a tactic works or not. Maybe a HB on a bad day, you throw her a neg and she will tell you to f**** off. But the next day she feels better and you throw her a neg and it works on her.
There are different theories about this topic. Some say to wait some days because else you might seem needy. Others say to not wait too long because if she is really hot she might meet other men during those 3 days and she will forget about you. The first one might have been attracted on the moment you asked her number. But you waited too long and she just forgot about you. Possibly, if you would have called her back the next day, she would have remembered you and with a little bit of quality phone game you could have attracted her again and go on a date with her.

Of course, if a girl is attracted to you, this works. If a girl likes you there is probably not much you can do to make her lose attraction for you. But that is not what picking up is all about. Sometimes, girls see you in a party but they aren't necessarily attracted to you. There are other, better looking men than you which they think are attractive. The girls might be wishing that those more attractive men open them and try to ask them out. But suddenly you open her and you are fun and you make her laugh and when you leave her she starts missing the fun time she was having with you. Now, she prefers you over the better looking men in that party because you had the guts to open her and you were soooo funny and sooooooo nice to be with. She just wants to be with you and nobody else.
I see nothing. I only see that you are succesfull when a girl is initially attracted to you. Try to buy flowers to a HB that isn't initially attracted to you and you will be considered one of the many losers buying her gifts. On the other hand, go buy flowers for a fat low quality girl that isn't attracted to you from the beginning and she will marry you. But we are not interested in the desperate fat girls. We want the HB's. Go to a HB that isn't initially attracted to you, and be fun and cool and you will attract her. I am not saying that I managed to attract a HB that wasn't initially attracted to me but I saw other people make a HB crazy for them while the HB wasn't very interested in the beginning. You just have to know how to do it. And that is what the PUA community tries to teach you.