Flypapermeems and I just got results leading to the answer that: the majority of men that hang out with women who are not unattractive, do it because there is a possibility of sex.

Hobbit presented two good questions:
Is the intention of hanging out to have sex with the person?
Or is hanging out so good that sex becomes an intention?

Doc said:
It's human nature to want to have sex with women, therefore it is natural that you are going to surround yourself with people you find attractive.

Even Bonita threw something out there that I really liked. When a man meets a woman, he categorizes them in a 1.) are they do-able and 2.) are they dateable. They could meet one or both categories. If it becomes a friendship, you are saying that the only reason it went to friendship was because he couldn't escalate properly, or SHE didn't find HIM attractive. (correct me if I paraphrased wrong.)

What I am wondering is how honest are these friendships then? Is this his driving force behind the friendship, or is it just a possibility one would look forward to?

Do women need to be uncertain of their boyfriends who have many female friends? If the men are hanging with those women because they find them attractive, then by this rule, your boyfriends are trying to fuck other women.

Do men need to be uncertain of the men their 'girlfriends' hang out with? They find them attractive, so by this rule, those men are trying to fuck your girlfriend.

Are the friends actions motivated by their desire, or is their desire just a desire because of instinct? If they "want to," then by basic logic: want creates motive and motive leads to intent.

You're male friends intend to fuck you.

(I am just tossing this around too. I have no concrete understanding and certainly not enough input to actually formulate an opinion. So i'd love to hear all sides and theories.)

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This is a great thread!!! but heres my 2 cents on the whole deal.
men have what i like to call a ladder of all there friends who are girls and rate them on a scale of 1 to 10. 60 to 70% is how much they want to do them and 30 to 40 % is how easy they would be to do them.
In other words all guys want to have some form of a sexual relationship with almost all there female friends they might denies it, they may say its only when there drunk, they might not even know it but all guys want to get laid with there female friends and even have true relationships with them.

Girls are different they have two ladders one being for friends only (the ljbf zone) and the guys who i like.
This is why it is quite awkward at times to talk and open to women(well before pua and all that stuff) because you know you want to have sex but you are unsure if she has you in the good or friend zone and you want to get out of it. so most men think if they kiss up enough they will be in the good zone while sadley they get pushed more and more to the friend zone thus afc's are created.


Now what about your female friend who's your best friends Gf in that case she is on the ladder still but she is untouchable. meaning you would probably do her if she wasn't in the relationship but because of good morales and being a good friend your not gonna do something stupid and as guys we do value male friendship (or at least i do then relationships) cause who are you gonna get shit faced and watch sports with on the weekend (I don't think its gonna be your girlfriend) anyway i got to run now Ile continue my post a little later.

I don't have much time to put together a long post, but..

I have girls that I am great friends with. We are friends to the point where they love going out with me and watching me meet girls. They actually call it my 'exploits'. They clearly consider me a great friend and nothing more.

I feel like many people in this community over look the importance of having female friends. There is no need to try to lay every single girl you meet!! I am relatively new to PU, but one of the first things I learned was that you don't put women on a pedestal. If you are trying to lay every girl you meet, then you are putting the on a pedestal. Being good friends with some girls can massively improve your PU game. One, if you are not already comfortable around women having some friends that are girls will help you gain comfort in your ability to communicate what you want with girls that you want to PU. Two, using good girl friends as a pivot is great for game. Three, girls typically have large social circles, you can easily utilize this to meet more girls!!

In my opinion, most AFCs have few if any really good friends that are girls. I am a huge believer in natural game and I think learning how to befriend women is a key point of natural game.

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"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand. "

I think that some perspective is in order. The study of pickup tends to promote a focused, goal-oriented, procedural mindset regarding social interaction. Everybody has some aspect of the "natural" in them, though. Some men who gravitate to friendships with women have no intention of having sex with them, even though they might find their female friends to be sexually attractive.

How can this be? We consider ourselves higher animals for a reason. We have a consciously directed will and can deliberate act contrary to our instincts. A man in the situation described above could very honestly say, "At a different time, in a different place, under different circumstances, we would have sex. But not at this time, in this place, under these circumstances." To use Bonita's terms, the man and the woman could mutually agree that they find one another both date-able and do-able, but nonetheless, neither date nor have sex.

People form social relationships for a large variety of reasons. Romance is only one of many causes that bring people together. It is a particularly powerful reason and, perhaps, the one that most of the people here find most compelling, but it is not exclusive. This principle is often lost, I think: Men and women can CHOOSE not to escalate.

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Some vices miss what is right because they are deficient, others because they are excessive, in feelings or in actions, while virtue finds and chooses the mean.
Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea

I think the man accepts "friendship" reluctantly because it is better than nothing. He may not be trying to actively have sex with her, but he is actively trying not to screw it up so that could still be an option. So the friendship continues (even if the guy still thinks about having sex with her)...hoping that one day he can change her mind, or that she will see him in a different light if he just acts like a good friend. Don't get me wrong, he can still enjoy the friendship, but if the opportunity for sex came along with it he would be even happier.

I don't think women have this internal conflict as much as men. When I meet a guy, I do not consciously process if he is do-able....well not as quickly as men make this decision. And even though I think about it I would say "no" to many guys even if they are physically attractive and we have a friendship. I think that is a difference between guys and girls and the "need" for sex. Someone once said that 99% of men would have sex with 90% of all the females on earth (including very ugly ones) as long as no one knew they did it. I'm not sure if that is true but I think that goes to say something....This statement would be SO false for women. Not even close to reality. I can turn down a guy who is physically attractive and that I get along with and be perfectly fine, because I just don't "need" or want sex in that way.

So for guys worrying about their girlfriends who have a lot of guy friends, there is only one thing to say....

You can't control anyone else's thoughts. Are guys going to think about having sex with your girlfriend? Yes. Are they going to try? Maybe. Will they succeed? Only if the girl lets them. If you are keeping her emotionally and physically satisfied then she will not see the need to seek out other men and sleep with them. She will be so satisfied with you that even if she does think about another man, he won't compare to you.

so rather than thinking about it as natural state: fuck or be fucked, we have to focus on perception and choice: trust and be trusted

Very good response Bonita!

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[color=red:7c51ae7520]email is a better option: thelockestar@gmail.com[/color:7c51ae7520][/size:7c51ae7520]

Yes don't trust any guy who isn't a good friend of yours I can speak of this from personal experience about a girl I dated over 2 years ago. A guy who was pretending to only be interested in friendship confessed his love for her She told him she didnt want to date anyone, then about a week later me and started going out. The guy was furious he would put on a fake mask in front of me like he was all buddy buddy with me. I knew otherwise because my girlfriends-- friends would tell me he was jealous of me thought i was too damn cocky blah blah blah.

Ok my girl was still friends with the guy she went by his room one day he started trying to play wrestle with her then he got on top of her and started trying to take her clothes off and she told him to stop but he kept on trying she got scared. he stopped before it went any further.
She was really shaken up about the situation afterwards.

What im getting at is any heterosexual male hanging around a female that He hasn't clearly put into the friend zone is a liar who's just too gutless to make a move from the start.

And any guy who continues to just want to be friends with a woman who has rejected his romantic/sexual interest is a liar that friendship won't last long or the girl could be in potential danger by continuing to be around that guy who she rejected later on.

Its situations like the one i described that make me have such a disgust for forum post where men have waited weeks or months to let a woman know they're insterested romantically or sexually

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Friendzone 1-vt51424.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Reo you bring up valid points but I think that is a rather extreme example. I don't think it is healthy to go around all your life being skeptical and suspicious of others. Have confidence in what you can control, and as far as other people, trust that they will be able to conduct themselves accordingly.

Bonita Extreme or not stuff happens more so the women need to be wary of the types of situations they put themselves in too

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Friendzone 1-vt51424.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Yes Virginia, they all want to bang you.

http://laddertheory.com/yesvirginia.htm

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"A man is but the product of his thoughts, what he thinks, he becomes." - Mohandas Gandhi

Smartass, that site actually speaks to this matter as well. According to the page to which you linked, a man will eschew sex with a particular woman if "The guy already has a woman much higher than you on the ladder." This is relevant. Consider the aphorism, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." Alternately, the woman who you are already dating, screwing, married to, etc. is a higher value to you than a woman who you MIGHT date, screw, marry, etc.

And while I generally agree that ladder theory provides an insightful description of the average situation, one must be careful not to apply a generalization to every specific scenario.

That page features the following hypothetical situation, as an illustration of the principle that men want only one thing. Frankly, I would do neither. I would be a little bit embarrassed and flattered, but I would remind my female friend that I am, in fact, committed to chastity until marriage, and politely decline. You can go ahead and ask WTF I'm doing at a pickup web site, but I wish to offer a counterpoint to the oversimplified notion that men and women always behave in a manner compliant with their instincts despite their capacity for conscious, deliberate, rational thought.

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Some vices miss what is right because they are deficient, others because they are excessive, in feelings or in actions, while virtue finds and chooses the mean.
Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea

well that is why we can't really count ourselves towards reliable data sources for this poll--we are ALL special cases, and a lot of us are on opposite ends of the spectrum. The "normal" person and friendship is what we would have to focus on.

The ladder theory sounds very enticing to believe, but...then we have to look at it as: she is naked in front of him, of course he isn't going to turn that down. But the friendship....was it all TO GET her naked in front of him?

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Was the friendship perpetrated to get her naked? It could have been been; or it could not have been. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that healthy human beings are capable of making actual decisions. We can view experiences and dilemmas in a context that is much wider than, "Am I going to get to have sex with her?" To me, this appears to be the persistent weakness of the pickup community. The world around you is bigger than who is fornicating with whom. People share hobbies, go to church, lobby their governments, and attend PTA meetings.

Maybe the guy who has a lot of female friends is popular because he helped to push the local school district to offer more nutritious lunches in the cafeteria. (Yes, this example is a little bit campy, but I'm trying to illustrate a point.)

One of the goals of learning pickup is to make personal improvements. Realize that most people are NOT as single-minded about sex and dating as you are. I know I'm not. My coach was trying to push me to read Mystery Method. I will, but first, I intend to finish reading the book I started on citizen activism. Part of your self-improvement plan should involve developing perspective, ESPECIALLY by leveraging your new-found social mastery to engage people in areas that touch all of your diverse interests, not just your romantic interests.

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Some vices miss what is right because they are deficient, others because they are excessive, in feelings or in actions, while virtue finds and chooses the mean.
Aristotle, Ethica Nichomachea

Maybe you should spend a little more time in the community and meet a couple more people before you go ahead and make statements like that.

Many MANY people here do focus on self improvement. Not only that, but the golden rule is to leave people better than you found them. So instead of calling people narrow minded and focused on small things that don't matter....meet some people and open your mind-- because right now it seems like you have a very limited perception.

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you have a point zeglass, but I'd say this could be interpreted as hipocrisy

I myself, am very true to what I want and what Im feeling
my female friends most I've already kissed, hit on(for sure), are girlfriends of friends of mine or are long-time friends(but I'd probably do the atractive ones, I just don't fancy on hitting on them for the moment)
to be honest, I barely make much friendship with any girl at all, if a girl is unnatractive to me Ill probably won't befriend her any close than what I consider friendship(my boyfriends(lol))
and if I find her atractive Ill make it clear

its not that I don't believe in male/female friendship, but really guys, its just not the general rule at all, we all know