I have noticed recently as Pua get more popular the more "bad apples" it is drawing to it. I know this is a pretty common sense point to make but as far as I am concerned it is having a negative effect on things that can only get worse.

For example when did it become perfectly acceptable to call girls bitches and sluts. Fair enough they will never see it but I think it is disrespectful and will create an attitude/in the community, that will make us seem like the evil manipulators that think of women as objects, that the media has tried to portray us as since the whole PUA thing hit the limelight.

Also I am noticing some really superficial trends within the community, such as people not having others as friends because they aren't pretty enough, or assuming an armarni suit will fill the gaps in their personality/inner game.

I know this was a bit of a rant but I am noticing more and more of these qualities creeping into these forums and if it is the future of PUA, I am going solo.

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Troll the trolls
free book http://www.4shared.com/file/123140320/b ... ndows.html

There are always going to be bad apples like this. I know a few naturals that I went to middle/high school with who are like that. They don't call themselves puas but yeah they have a rather disgusting attitude towards women and seem to believe that they are basically sexual objects and that's it. Thankfully they don't affiliate themselves with pick up. There will always be people like that but we just need to show that we are more about teaching shy, awkward, men who can't get dates and want long term relationships how to be attractive then just getting laid non-stop and that if we do do it to get laid that we want to please the girl as well.

I remember having this exact conversation about a year ago or something on another pickup forum.

When a pool that you regularly swim in gets dirty, are you the type of person who leaves the pool so it just gets dirtier, or do you stay and help keep it clean?

Good point maybe its not time to jump ship, rather teach these guys where they are going wrong.

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Troll the trolls
free book http://www.4shared.com/file/123140320/b ... ndows.html

I've been working against this for a long time, so I know what you mean. I'm also currently working on a project with a bunch of other people in order to try and create a new "pool" as Chief put it, by distilling the current pool. Filtering the good people into the new pool and letting as little of the garbage into it, in the hopes that having an overwhelming population of good people will help dissinfect the filthy ones.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I am currently trying to find a way to slap people over the internet, once this is avalible all problems will be solved.
Seriously, I know exactly what you mean. But as chief said, i have a hell of a lot of disinfectant and a lot of scrubbing to do..... maybe i will uncover the location of Rye Lee's pool at some point.

I think it is important to note that the people with an attidude towards women that is negative wont get very far in PU, they will look for the magic lines, realise their arn't any and then not want to put the effort into making themselves better and continue their life of blaming the world for the short commings.

As for teling these people their attitude stinks, do they really seem the type to listen?
As a general rule I limit giving my time and energy to helping people with the right attitude, the problem is finding those people.

As for generalising this as the direction PU is going, i dont think this is the case. As i said, people with that sort of attitude drop out when they realise the effort. Rye lee, Sean Messenger, Johnny Soporno, Hobbit, Fin, Zip, Chief etc etc etc etc are all doing things which i feel are taking PU forward in a good way, maybe to the point of the 4tf generation of PUA? only time will tell.

Madals

i have to agree. even though it'd be really nice to just clean the world up from idiots and users, it's hard to do because they usually like the way they are and are unwilling to change. change is not something that you can do to anyone else, period. you can try to effect change (and to an extent you will, hopefully), but change is a personal choice. if the idiots don't choose to change themselves, then they'll stay that way til they destroy themselves.

but don't give up because of idiots. as frustrating as they are, they can be (to quote) like slinkies: not really good for anything, but fun to watch fall down the stairs...

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the place where optimism most flourishes is the lunatic asylum...

Well Madals, I've been in a bit of a slump lately and I think that might have pushed back the date I was hoping to release the project to the public, but I'm hoping that things are turing around (I stayed up all night and did a bunch of cleaning and stuff, woot!). There's about 15 members of this forum currently involved and I won't disclose their names in order to keep people from asking them questions they can't really answer, but as soon as I take care of a few more developmental things I'll be inviting a few more people and your name maaaay be on that list.

I'm hoping to have the project go public mid-late January. I'll be posting more details as soon as I have taken care of those developmental things. What I will say is that if everything goes as planned, it will help erase people's complaints about issues like this and everyone involved is pretty excited!

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

*madals quickly rights Ryle Lee a christmas card to get his name in*

Sounds great, but we had better stop taking away from this thread, because it raises some important issues imo.

Madals

I'm going to have to play devils advocate and disagree with this, and before your finger heads towards the minus on my rep thingy just hear me out.

Yes with the popularity of PU there are going to be more womanizers out there, but what you have to accept is that there are women out there who actually WANT a one night stand, want to be manipulated, and don't mind being called a bitch or slut. If this were not true then hoes and pimps would not exist in the world today.

IMO there's no way you can call PU manipulation because she isnt an object like you said. She has a mind most likely know about PU (since its so popular now) and can say no at any time. I can garentee you there is no routine out there that will work 100% of the time.

So I think that before you try saving those who don't want to be saved you think about this more.

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Don't ever let somebody tell you.. you can't do something. Not even me. All right?

You got a dream.. you gotta protect it. People can't do something themselves, they wanna tell you you can't do it. If you want something, Go get it. Period.

I agree that there are many out there that do not want to be saved so I will keep my mouse pointer away from the minus button! There are many on this forum who have their "horse blinders" on and can only see in one narrow direction. As unfortunate as it is, this is true.

When any pool of people becomes large enough it will become dirty at some point. You have to take some of the good with the bad. I don't disagree with the rant at all though Jaybot.

Dude people have been having this timeless debate for years. You can do this in many ways. It is like the idea of locks on doors are only to keep the honest people out of your house.

OR the idea of guns. If they are in the right hands or if the fall into the wrong hands? And who says who's right and wrong? SOCIETY! They think as a general guideline that we in a 'general' sense are wrong in what we do. Hmmm... So can we trust them? This debate is for later but seriously this debate has been fought for a long time, just on different subjects.

Like Chief says the best thing we can do is stick around after the party and clean up!

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

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the place where optimism most flourishes is the lunatic asylum...

Pickup is like anything in this world: it can either create princes or douchebags.

We do good work. Guys looking for a quick fix or who don't care about IG will always be around. They've been here from the beginning, and they will always seem to exponentially multiply.

This is why we stay the course and fight the good fight.

And as far as calling women sluts/bitches/etc.. especially to the idea that some women like being called a bitch or a slut:

1.) ... yes, a woman may like to power-play and have you call her a dirty ho. During sex. When it's role-play.
2.) In any other scenario, it is unacceptable. I believe one lowers his value by degrading women. It is the mindset of a loser and not a champion.

Anyway, these poor guys who are on here saying "bitch," flaming other members, bragging about ONSs... it's all a defense mechanism. It takes a good amount of ball-power to sign up for a forum and admit "I need help meeting chicks." For some men, they turn to douchy behavior because they just aren't confident enough to admit they need help with Inner Game.

It's our job to be here for the douches when they realize that they need real help.

So, stay strong, my friends! We shall stay the course and fight the good fight! Fight douchebaggery! Impart the importance of proper grammar! Using paragraphs! Dropping oneitis! Opening the mind to inner game solutions!

THIS
IS
SPARTA!

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- Zip

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the place where optimism most flourishes is the lunatic asylum...

I just get what you mean by you appealing to guys by doing guy stuff to start with
Yeah, Zip wins, again.