Touching story, I know.

in all reality i'd shoot the motherfucker too.

Good Post Sean!

Sometimes I get the impression that some guys who are into pickup see themselves as superior to all men. They have a "It doesnt matter her bf is an AFC" attitude. Perhaps, its the challenge too. Regardless, a true alpha male would respect his fellow men.

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"To Give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift" -Prefontaine

Not a PUA just a girl offering my opinions/advice

You own your dog. You don't own another human being. Sure, I expect respect, but only when I can give the same amount of respect. Respect to me involves letting someone practice their free will. I'm just confident that I'm man enough for a girl if I'm exclusive with her for her to be "loyal," but I also know that there is always room to grow. Screw attachment and scarcity mentality.

This is why I love this forum. Anywhere else and there would be a ton of guys saying, "if she's down with it it doesn't matter." It isn't always that easy.

I have been with a few girls who had boyfriends, but I didn't know until afterward. Like the Joker said, "Never rub another man's rhubarb." You remember that approach anxiety thing ... it's the fear of getting your ass kicked because you went after the AMOG's chick. It's a hold over from more primitive times, but it isn't just a pain in the ass. It's fear, and fear is sometimes there to warn you you're screwin' up. The whole sargin' another guys girlfriend is what it's warning you about, because it is still the one situation that can get your ass kicked. Oh it's all fun and The Game until someone pounds you into a puddle, but why take the risk? Don't forget "he needed killin'," is still a defense in some states.

As for jealousy, my father was terribly jealous. It ruined my parents relationship so I've spent most of my life trying to overcome it, but it still sometimes takes me by surprise. I have learned to let go, but I can't expect all men to be that way. I can't remember where I heard it, but it's true. "Jealousy is the most unpleasant way to find out you're attracted to someone." It's why jealousy plot lines work, but it's a bitch when you're on the other end.

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Artax
Devil's Advocate

"You're only as young as the women you feel."
"I am the Master of my unspoken words, and the Slave to those words that should have remained unsaid."

GREAT points Sean & others ,& what I’m dealing with currently & need help on.

I met a college girl through friends, there was mutual interest, so our friends set us up. She was nervous & shy at the start of the date, but the 2nd half of the date I got her comfortable & to open up & had a blast. We exchanged numbers & she was calling me the next day & told me I was a great guy/ had a great a time, & we set up date #2.

Seeing we hit it off my friends tell me she has a BF, & that they didn’t tell me because they wanted us to go out. Said it was on the rocks, long distance where he doesn’t visit & could, along with being a loser (felon I think).

We continue to talk & went out a 2nd time, had a blast, said she was having a great time & was very comfortable until the very end of the night at her door when it was obvious I wanted to kiss & I felt her nerves & avoiding eye contact, so I dropped it. She seemed torn for the the 1st time.

We continued talking on the phone, & caught a basketball game. All seemed to be going well & fun again. Knowing she was leaving for Xmas break to go home & work another state away we went out 1 last time where my plan was to talk to her about us, but I think she sensed it coming & reverted to being a ball of nerves again & left early, to study for exams, which I think was part legit & part uncomfortable.

I got word she liked me a lot from friends, but was confused. Feeling like it was my last shot before a month away with her loser BF, to patch things up. I emailed her basically how I felt. Felt it was the only option to put it out there with a month away killing whatever we were starting, & would give her a chance to respond. It’s been over a week now & I have got nothing back.

I know from friends she got it, plans on responding, but doesn’t know what to say or do. She's a great person & was great when the pressure was off, but has real insecurity issues. My friends said she told them she didn't think she deserved a guy as good as me. Yet she hasn't dumped the loser BF. I don’t know how to proceed.

This is where it gets tough, and there are many posts like this on this forum.

Don't wait for her to respond. Life is short, and there is no commitment between you two. I think you should go out and have fun, meet some other girls and date them too. Bring your friends along, and let them see you aren't going to stand still waiting. If they tell her that's good. If they don't tell her that's good too. You can't let it get to you.

Why, because you may miss the perfect girl for you while you're waiting on her. You can't take that chance. If she's the perfect girl she'll let you know, but you can't let your social life stagnate. It's damn hard to get it moving again if you do.

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Artax
Devil's Advocate

"You're only as young as the women you feel."
"I am the Master of my unspoken words, and the Slave to those words that should have remained unsaid."

I specifically went out this week & opened sets, just to try to get her off my mind. I'm definitely not going to stop my life but this girl is great & it's the 1st time in forever I have felt 1-itus. I'm crazy about her & I know she is into me, but insecure & scared what to do. This is a horrible break being away.

She deserves so much more though, even if that's not me. She would be so much better off broken up with this loser who has visited once this year, but travels to car shows all around on the weekends. If she see's him she has to make the effort about once a month.

My question though is I basically poured my heart into an email (love letter)even if that was AFC, I thought I had to & did it & now I'm dangling waiting on her. I know she is shy anyway & struggling with what to do, but it's pretty tough on me with each passing day.

I don't know if I should call her, email again. Part of me is disappointed she can't at least acknowledge what I said. I just don't know how long to wait before I need to say something else or push her do decided so I can move on. It's hard not pushing right now.

I thought I would just leave her alone until Xmas day unless she responded. & just text her & say merry xmas & hopefully that would get some dialogue at least going again.

I'm gonna shoot straight with you, cos I can tell you are a stand-up dude.

This girl is not for you. When you find yourself torn about what to do, use this simple trick. Flip the script.

Let's say it's a girl who's after you. She's confident and fun and into you. But you have real low-self-esteem, and you have been dating someone that's not great for you, but that you are comfortable with, for a while. You have fun with this girl, but every time you are with her, you KNOW that you're not good for her. It makes you anxious just to be around her, cos you know you'll just fuck it up.

Would it be smart for this girl to go out with you? Or is it better for you for her to go away, telling you clearly that she sees what's great in you, even if you don't believe it yourself, and that you should give her a call someday when she sees it too?

What is the best thing you can do for the other person, and YOURSELF? You wouldn't invest a ton of time in a friend who was insecure and who you knew felt wasn't cool enough to hang around you, right? It's just painful for both of you.

So don't do it with her. You CANNOT fix her. You CANNOT change her. Only she can do that. And if you persist in chasing her now, you take away her chance to make that change for herself.

It sucks, I know, but trust me, I've dated waaaaay too many girls like this in this kind of situation, and it's always the same. Whatever you get at the beginning is EXACTLY what you will get the whole time, only MORE.

If you did get her to break up with her boyfriend and go out with you, she'd break up with you too the same way.

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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

What ^he^ said.

I'm well acquainted with the feeling. If you're seriously into improving yourself and want a healthy relationship you need to always consider what is best for both of you. With a little more emphasis on you.

I think it was David D. who said you have to be selfish for a while in order to be generous later. "Selfish" gets a bad rap, but I can't change anyone else except me. So, me is who I'm working on, but I share all the improvements I've made with everyone I meet.

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Artax
Devil's Advocate

"You're only as young as the women you feel."
"I am the Master of my unspoken words, and the Slave to those words that should have remained unsaid."

Thanks for your help. I respect your opinion a lot, & deep down I know you're you are probably right. Hearing it from somewhere else helps it sink in.

What you demand for yourself, and the love you give yourself, is exactly the same amount you will get from other people.

YOU have to demand the best for yourself, and then you will get it. If you accept less, that is what you will get.

I know she's a good girl, and a good person, and your feelings are real. But she will not be any better with you than she is now. Understand that, and then decide what you deserve.

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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

Wow, there were a lot of heavy hitters weighing in on this topic. This might be reaching sticky status?

Let me flip this a little, and reverse it. Here's a twist. What if the girl was dumped, say about 2 months ago now. Especially in the past two or three weeks we've definitely started to build up some good chemistry. One catch though. She still believes that she should be with this guy, even cried at midnight last night. Didn't say why but that was pretty obvious. She even still hangs out with him (not helping my cause at all obviously)but I'm pretty sure they aren't hooking up.

So basically, does that 1/2 to full amount of relationship time needed to recover really apply? Should I try to make a move? I don't even know what I want to do because I actually really like her personality a lot and she could probably be a good friend. I haven't run into too many situations like this in my time. But I've been trying to play it slow and build up a lot of rapport because of this situation. But now it's getting to the point where I'm actually starting to like her, and I'm pretty sure if she didn't have this guy on the brain, we'd probably be dating.

What do you guys think?

Catchy little relevant tune~
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-Bronco

"I'm like a dog chasing a car; if I ever caught it I don't think I'd know what to do with it" - Heath Ledger as The Joker