Tricking someone into having sex with you (NLP, oh yeah, people are gonna hate me)

I think the only reason this discussion may not go anywhere, is because of the focus on personal accountability. I'm not saying there is no need for emphasis on said accountability, merely that there's really not a whole lot to be done about it, as that is a personal responsiblity and choice and aside from telling people to be critical in their thinking, there isn't much more we can do; we can't force people to examine what they are reading and not believe everything they read, that's just not within our realm of influence. I think that's actually part of the point you're trying to make if I'm not mistaken and exactly why you guys seem so frustrated with the argument, correct?

My side of the argument though, is that we DO have the ability to affect this issue by putting forth more material that goes against that mindset and that causes people to see a wider perspective merely by reading it. We have the ability to post stuff that doesn't conform to the social robot way of thinking and encourages people to think more diversely. They may not think about that information critically and take a personal responsibility to compare it to other perspectives and ways of thinking, so again that is their personal accountability falling short and something we have no influence over. Yet by putting forth more open-minded material and stuff that doesn't emphasize happiness through sex, we have the ability to do a bypass of many of those issues previously discussed as being common within the community. This IS within our zone of influence and thus it isn't a waste of time to discuss, because we can talk about in what ways we can be more effective in promoting the health and integrity of the community and make action plans to achieve those goals.

See where I'm coming from? You made this thread with the initial intent of just saying, "Look, the community isn't at fault, it's your responsibility to think about shit." But that doesn't change anything, that just hopefully tells people to think about things and hopefully they listen. That message doesn't reach everyone and thus doesn't have a dramatic and wide ranged effect upon the community, it merely affects the people that read it. What I'm talking about is the problems that exist within the community and waging a battle against them that we can actually constantly do through being vigilant in everything we say and do with people. We can have a measurable impact and effect upon the community through these steps and this is within our control, whereas saying that the responsibility rests upon everyone else and there's nothing you can do about it.

Personally I'd prefer to have some level of control and responsibility over things. I'd rather have the ability to make changes and improve the state of things from where they are right now.

I've discussed this with Sean Messenger and we realised we have a common goal is this and so I'm attending his workshop in a week and a half in the hopes of us being able to work together to further the concepts of happiness through personal responsiblity, growth and development. In turn that will improve the vibe within the community and perhaps cause more people to take that responsibility of personal accountibility more seriously because of the new mentality.

Currently I don't believe the prevailent mentality promotes such thinking; I feel that it promotes listening to the well known guys that "know what they're talking about" and people just take it as gospel. By changing the focus of the community, not only do we remove the focus on fucking as many girls as you can to achieve happiness, not developing loving relationships, becoming more of a jerk in order to get the girls and all those other detestable things that Meg mentioned, well first off no longer will people have any reason to blame the community for anything, because it's all good! There isn't that focus on things that outsiders and even many of us may perceive as negative consequences of being involved in pickup.

Secondly, part of what that mentality promotes is the focus on being responsible for your own happiness and that it comes from within you, not as a result of accomplishing goals with women, but just by being content with yourself. I'll tell you right now, I haven't had sex in months because I'm so focused on other aspects of my life right now and I honestly don't give a shit! To be perfectly honest, I'm incredibly happy with the way things in my life are going right now and although I would be even happier as a result of being in a relationship with a deep connection, I know that having that and not being happy with the rest of my life would be worse than being happy with the rest of my life and not having it. Heck, if the next girl I get into a relationship with doesn't want to have sex for a few weeks, I could care less, as long as we're still in a healthy relationship that is intimate emotionally. Sex isn't relevant to happiness, it is merely an expression of that connection and I don't derive that feeling of connection through sex. Having this mentality allows me to consciously process all the information I come into contact with and evaluate whether it is congruent with my values and beliefs, or whether it will cause my values and beliefs to become better or worse as a result of integrating it. If it doesn't benifit me, then I don't integrate it, but I still remember it.

By making a push towards this mentality and promoting that sort of thinking with the right kind of material, it has a cascading affect and people become more apt to think critically and accept their personal accountability. The negative aspects of the community become greatly reduced and they become the minority rather than the majority. Then the whole argument becomes irrelevant as a result. It would be like arguing that living in New York causes you to join a gang, just because a small fraction of the population there participates in gangs and that is a complete fallacy of biased statistics and hasty generalizations, so it is easily dismantled. As it stands, look how long we have been discussing the argument because of the state of the community; who's responsiblity is it; what causes it; where does the blame rest; what can be done to fix it? All gone and easily dismissed within the length of one sentence, "That is a minority of the population and within any population, there will always be an undesireable element - even within a small town of a couple hundred people there are a few people that aren't viewed in a positive light - this is merely a result of statistical probability and human nature." Bam. Who's gonna fuck with that argument? I wouldn't.

So sure, we can just wash our hands of it and say, "Oh well, not my fault, not my problem. We can't do anything to fix it, because it's their responsibility!" Or we can take responsiblity for what we DO have the ability to affect - which I'd argue you already do without realising how it fits into this argument - and say, "Yes the community may be currently situated to have a negative impact upon individuals within it, but we can change that! We can make it better, stronger, faster!"

I choose to see the community for it's flaws and take the responsiblity to do everything I can to change that, not just say that it's every individual's own responsibility and nothing to do with the community itself, because saying that leaves me powerless to do anything to change it and I always choose to feel empowered versus powerless in any situation. I'm sure you do too and that you probably agree with most of what I've said, it's just a matter of admitting we're not talking about two different things here, we're talking about things that can be causally related.

I think Hobbit put it best when he said that the argument comes down to Nature vs. Nurture. Nature in this case being each person's personal accountability towards thinking critically of the concepts they encounter. Nurture being the content of the community and what content precisely each individual encounters. This is a debate the greatest minds in the world cannot come to an agreement upon, aside from the fact that there is irrefutably an impact from both effects; the disagreement is merely upon how much. Again, I'm studying this right now in my Lifespan Development course, which deals with how human beings develop from conception to death, largely based upon our assimilation of knowledge. I won't even be so presumptuous as to place a ratio on the effect that Nature or Nurture impact people in this instance, or any instance, but they do both have a profound impact and it is largely in how the person is taught to interpret events, as well as what events they encounter in life, combined with a genetic/mental pre-disposition towards certain ways of thinking.

Lets re-visit the example of the racist family, shall we? Little Jimmy grows up living in Texas back in the 30's and his family is part of the KKK (yeah, lets not fuck around; we're gonna go extreme). He is raised by his parents to believe that hating non-whites is the correct thing to do, because non-whites are all sorts of evil and should be lynched, or at the very least treated like slaves. He grows up thinking this is the way the world works, he accepts it because this is all he has ever known and he has no references to indicate to him that this is wrong. He joins the KKK, him and his family enjoy many a racist event until I throw in a happy ending and their house has a gas leak and explodes with everyone inside. Hurrah!

Now let's check out his next door neighbour, Bobby. Bobby's family is just as racist as Jimmy's family in every way. They attend the same KKK groups, they are equally hateful and lets for the sake of absurd argument say that there is absolutely nothing different between the families in any way shape or form, down to the fact that Bobby and Jimmy are born on the same day at the same hospital, at the same time, delivered by the same doctor (temporal distortions?! this is a hell of an argument! ) and christened by the same racist mother fucker of a so-called priest. However....Bobby doesn't turn out racist. Something happens and he decides this may not be right to treat other people like this and he "mistakenly" views black people as people. What happened? Personal choice right?

But lets now take a broader look at the rest of the members of the aforementioned KKK group and see how all their kids turned out. Out of the 100 different families that participate in this particular group, with somehow every single family having kids, only a very small minority of those kids ended up with views opposing the rest of their family. Among those kids, it ranges from ones that don't want to actively participate, but do nothing to stop their families or others from being racists, to rather outspoken individuals that try to persuade others that their beliefs are wrong, to little Bobby that likes to blow up racist's houses in the name of truth and justice everywhere.

Who's to blame? The kids? The parents? The KKK?

Well the kids were taught by their parents and everyone says to respect and listen to your parents, so should we blame them for not analysing the situation better? I mean they were kinda raised from birth to hold those beliefs, so at what point should they have stopped and taken a look around and realised something isn't right? It only gets harder to do so as you get older.

Let's blame the parents then! Oh wait...they were probably raised by their parents to be that way, just like their kids have been....hmmm....They're even older, so like I said, that's even harder to break that pattern, as it's been ingrained longer and they don't have anyone older than them telling them it's wrong, so they kinda set the precidents.

Alright! We'll blame the KKK! That's easy right? But wait....isn't the organization merely a congregation of people with similar beliefs, which means we would in turn be blaming the people listed above?

Who the FUCK do we blame then? Like I said, there IS no clear cut answer. You can't lump it on the people and you can't lump it on the organization, you merely have to realise that they both play a part and that they are intertwined.

In order to fix the issue, you can't just attack it from one side, it doesn't work like that when something is intertwined. You can't stop racists by telling them to stop being racist and you can't just outlaw the KKK and expect it to stop them from being racist either. You have to educate and promote equality and acceptance, as well as taking an active part in eliminating those organizations, or it won't go away. Unfortunately there is freedom of speech even in racism and so it won't go away, but the hope to stop the acting out of crimes.

You can't just tell people to wisen up and think about their actions and beliefs, that shit doesn't work. They won't stop and say, "OH REALLY?! Shit, I didn't REALISE that women are people too! I should have figured that out before, but now because you've told me to think, I managed to come to that conclusion, just as you did!" You know that, else you wouldn't be telling men to view women as equals. You can't tell the community that all material relating to viewing women as objects is hereby banned and nullified, it doesn't work like that and there's a lot to be learned from that material, even if many other lessons may also be problematic.

You show them another way and by showing them that way and teaching them to think for themselves and what kinds of beliefs are valuable to have and you spread those beliefs and information around as much as possible, they take root and spread. It creates an SPAM where those beliefs are considered standard and thus people are pre-disposed to adopt them, rather than the beliefs that are currently viewed as typical (ie, lots of random sex = happiness), which are what people are currently pre-disposed to accept. People think critically about all this information, as that is one of the beliefs that is promoted and so they are more apt to make better decisions about what is right and wrong.

So what's more powerful here: Nature or Nurture? I still can't tell you, because they're intertwined and it's a "chicken or the egg" argument. There's the theory that perhaps a lizard layed an egg and out hatched a chicken, but conversely there's also the theory that a chicken needed to exist in order to lay the egg. All I know is that people are more pre-disposed to adopt prevalent beliefs over the beliefs that are in the minority, just like that egg is more likely to hatch a chicken if a chicken laid it. That first chicken had to come from somewhere though and whether it hatched from an egg, or evolved from a live something else, it still came into being in order to help propogate the species. Some of us were born into the community with these beliefs already inherant, I know I was and I've never viewed women as anything less than men (Nature). Some of us were born into the community adopting the beliefs that men have the power, women are different and even less-than, but they turned around after thinking about it for a while and reading certain material that turned them around (Nurture). Who cares, let's just make more like us; lay more eggs and hatch more chickens; let's do that evolving thing that the community keeps talking about.

Since when was it a rule to have morals in pick-up? I don't think you get brownie points for loving every woman you meet either.

Honestly, if it wasn't for Mystery or Neil, this community wouldn't have been exposed and the manipulative ones wouldn't be shunned by an iron curtain by this community. Back in the day it was raw, brutal material and posts. No fluffing around on this "We're all good men, we have good intentions and are little fairies on a quest to build a lifestyle".

It was raw, and it was powerful. This Community's past intention was to get the woman of your dreams and plow through any that you wanted, without hiding behind a facade. Last time I checked women don't get a free pass out of getting hurt. Shit happens. Shit happened to me and if you guys remember, shit happened to you too. If I don't like a girl, well have mercy on her soul.

It's total horseshit to say you love every woman. Nobody loves Hussie Strumpets and those fat annoying ones that think they're hot or even the loud mouthed hot ones that blab about absolutely nothing. If your goal is to plow through women, I say go for it.

Since when was it a rule to have morals in pick-up? I don't think you get brownie points for loving every woman you meet either.

Honestly, if it wasn't for Mystery or Neil, this community wouldn't have been exposed and the manipulative ones wouldn't be shunned by an iron curtain by this community. Back in the day it was raw, brutal material and posts. No fluffing around on this "We're all good men, we have good intentions and are little fairies on a quest to build a lifestyle".

It was raw, and it was powerful. This Community's past intention was to get the woman of your dreams and plow through any that you wanted, without hiding behind a facade. Last time I checked women don't get a free pass out of getting hurt. Shit happens. Shit happened to me and if you guys remember, shit happened to you too. If I don't like a girl, well have mercy on her soul.

It's total horseshit to say you love every woman. Nobody loves Hussie Strumpets and those fat annoying ones that think they're hot or even the loud mouthed hot ones that blab about absolutely nothing. If your goal is to plow through women, I say go for it.