I hear all sides of this, and I'll posit this:

Why is it there is NO "PUA" who brags about being in a happy, monogamous relationship?

Including me, which is fucked up. I am very happily in Love with my girl, and want for nothing else other than her. So how come there's no one out there teaching me how to make that even better?

I posted this as a challenge to myself to step up. There's a thousand dudes who will purport to teach you how to be a player, but not one I've found who will teach you how to be a Man as has been pretty clearly defined by the societies we all live in. And that's pretty imbalanced, eh?

If anyone can find good sources of people who teach how to find and keep one girl happy, I'm all ears. I could use some source material on this.

_________________
===

Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

I've been privately helping people with their relationships for years, even before I got into the community. Now I'm not saying that I'm an expert, but I've helped more than a few people save their relationships as well as help them progress them further along. I think I actually enjoy relationship coaching more than "pickup" or dating coaching because they're much more involved and I am able to get a greater insight into the other party through the prolonged connection that they have.

Anyone that wants some advice with a relationship is more than welcome to PM me. Like I said, I actually enjoy those messages more than the ones I get about trying to get "that one girl" or any of the other common pickup questions.

If you ever want someone to talk to about your relationship Sean, don't forget I'm here for you bud! I'd like to consider you as one of my better friends (you're definitely better than most of the friends I've had in the past) and you've helped me so much that I can only hope to return the favor in any way possible.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

well, I understand that...

this game thing is just a tool, and you end up using it the way you want it...
to me its much more into social aspect and by now, getting a nice girlfriend.. as I said, its just a tool

I've been glued to my computer for the last half hour reading these posts. I'm new to the site, and this is exactly the type of information/dialogue I was originally seeking out. I'm glad to see there are some intelligent people that are looking at the "bigger picture". RyeLee and Sean, your posts are so well thought out, and a breath of fresh air considering some of the stuff on this site (mainly the ridiculous overuse of acronyms and blatant misogynist attitudes).

I am personally looking for balance in my life. Relationships/Sex/Women is just one area, and for me has been the biggest weakness. I believe a person is only as strong as their weakest link (kinda cliched, I know). Becoming a true Pickup artist, if I choose to become one, would just throw everything out of whack. The price to get there is probably not worth it either (I say this and it's already past midnight and I have a job interview early in the morning). It's so easy to become obsessed with this stuff, LOL.

Anyways, my main point is I'm really thankful for having a place to go to hear everyone's insights, and hopefully we can all help each other in living happier, more balanced lives.

Ok I didn't read this whole thread, so what I say may have been said before.

Sean, you are so incredibly right. I've felt this way, quiet profusely over the past few months. In many cases when helping guys in PUA I must admit that I'm deep down, disgusted with the mentality of needing to go out to the club every weekend to pickup and "try" to bang a girl. "The Game" takes away your humanity; and if you spend to much time on it, like Johnny stated, you will lose your ability to love.

We as humans are creatures of behavioral conditioning, and after going out so often and getting one-night stands or even short-term relationships you begin to lose your emotional connection to these women. Your emotional side only leads you as far as her pants. On top of the fact you will become an attention whore in your own right. You go out to get everyone's attention. You want to flaunt your successes to the other people around you. You should look back and remember the time when you were that guy watching the studs get girls and what you thought. Deep down you thought he was a tool for parading these women around like toys. If any of you need prime examples as to the losing your ability to love another person look no further than the "Idols of Pick Up": Style and Mystery. Sure they can get a woman into bed, sure they can make a woman jealous, but can they make a woman love them and love that girl back?

The true path to loving someone, is actually putting your emotion on the line. You can still be the confident man that you have become, and be emotional with a woman that you love/or are learning to love. The fact of the matter is that it is your emotion and care that will make a woman love you. This isn't something you can fabricate. This isn't something that a routine will get you there. It is a genuine connection, that can only be reached by taking that risk.

The fact of the matter is, if you really want to be happy. You should concentrate on relationships. Building a loving relationship; "The American Dream" as Sean put it. If anyone honestly is trying to do this, and doesn't understand how please ask. Sean, I know what you mean about no outspoken relationship talk. But all my life I've been helping men and women make relationships work. I've done it alot more recently as well (case in point, my dissalusion with pickup as a whole).

If anyone wants relationship advice. Or just someone to talk to about relationships. I am open to it. I'm far more satisfied helping someone with a relationship rather than helping them to get a phone number or a girl into their bed.

Kleen Kut, I'm curious.....

Msyginist attitudes?

Maybe with some of the new guys, overall PU destroys most mysoginistic thoughts.

I agree, and think most here probably are just looking to improve their confidence, conversation skills, and just generally learn what will build success with women. However, many seem bitter that women have ignored them in the past, and now they seem motivated by revenge.

Agreed, however not everyone comes here becuase women have ignored them, or that they were "social failures" in the past.

Granted we often become a rehabilitator for the introverts, but we are also a flourishing ground for the extroverts or those who swung neither way, yet simply wanted to learn about this.

Yes, this bitterness, I can see where you are coming from, it's a reason so many people turn to MM when they start, it doesn't require them to put their feelings on the line, they get to turn tables and pretend they are better than everyone else.

We do seem to have some problem cases in that sense, people who seem to take to much pleasure in over-using negs, for them, the irony is too much to be missed. Regardless of the emotional state the reciever is left in.

I love that idea that guys who go out every weekend to pick up also become attention whores... like, they are saying they are totally outcome-independent, when the opposite is true.

Eric Von M. is the perfect example. You can STILL see in his baby face that he's a shy, nice, quiet kid who just wants attention for what he's good at, and not at all the dress-crazy loonie he pretends to be for TV.

He's become the male version of the girls he wanted. He's a cipher. There's nothing really there OTHER than the illusion, which may in fact make him great at his chosen art, as he has always been an illusionist.

But what if we could use these tools and this community to become what WE ARE, not the male versions of the girls that others tell us we want, but don't... really?

_________________
===

Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

Sean, I knew I wasn't the only one who believed that being a "pick-up artist" makes you an attention whore.

The only true change you can gain from "the game" is confidence. Confidence is the main attractive feature that you should take away from this. However, all the teachings and practices that help you gain this confidence is contradictory to what it takes to be a good boyfriend or husband.

This being said, I'll go back to what I said above; this is the reason guys like Style and Mystery can't hold a good relationship. Pick up teachs you that its all about you and nothing matters except "you". Well a relationship is a mutual experience and a 50/50 meaning. Both you and her are equal, you need to be considerate of her needs as she should be of yours. If this can't be achieved then you aren't meant to be together.

Jsquared.

1. This is a common misconception of an alpha male "It's all about treating me like a king, when I come back in the new year I'll be making a post about alpha males, and what it really means to be alpha.

2. I think style has a girl right now, although I do agree many new guys particularly the routine heavy people here, have trouble going past a day 4 or so, becuase they are so used to lines.

They think they are attractive, however, deep down they know that they are not what the girls like, it's their lines written by other guysthat they like.

So they panic when they have to hold a long term relationship. And they break it off in favour of someone who hasn't heard their material.

Fin, I'll address both of your statements, starting with Style. Style is currently single, and I know this because a friend of mine actually met him a few weeks ago when Style was traveling to New York.

Now to your comment about "common misconception". Its not a common misconception, its a common mentality that many people who are in the community possess. Because, they don't know how to balance being alpha and being a caring person. I will agree to the extent that there are guys who know the difference, but most new guys don't. Because of the precepts they are taught, they don't understand what it means to be a confident man.

In my opinion the real misconception here is that of being a "alpha male". It takes certain innate qualities to be a true alpha male. All of the AMOGing and "alpha" techinques aren't the qualities. They are the things true alphas do naturally that anyone can immulate. The major goal is to be a confident comfortable person, rather than a "alpha male". The two are mutually exclusive.

An example of a true alpha male is leadership. Being able to effectively lead people is a quality that you are born with, not something you can just learn. There are ways to immulate this trait, but to be a leader it must be innate.

Even the people with the traits of leadership born into them need to learn how to become effective leaders though. I've been a leader almost as long as I can remember. I hated following people that I knew were worse leaders than me, so I got tired of it and took charge even though I wasn't one of the "cool kids". Wasn't all that great at it to start out, but I was better than them, cause they were just popular, they didn't know shit about how to manage stuff. To become a great leader though I'm still learning and I'll never stop, cause the moment I stop learning how to be more effective that's the moment I become a shitty leader. It isn't all just innate.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Havent read all 6 pages of posts.. just the 1st and last.

PUA isn't just about 'one night stands'.
We do LTR game and INNER GAME as well.
The OP is just unfamiliar with the community and doesn't seem to understand it fully.
Instead of wasting time blabbing about something that's not even true, he could've learned something useful.

PUA improves lifestyle, confidence, success rates, relationships.

This guy was criticizing club game and one night stands, not the community.
Please don't expect us to go "Wow man, you are soo right. We've been living lies for the past 2 years and we should just quit PUA (Which is impossible)"

Thanks,
Grape

_________________
http://highschoolpuas.proboards.com

http://highschoolpuas.proboards.com

Grape's eBook of 2009 (71 pages of useful information) http://www.scribd.com/doc/24523878/Grap ... ok-of-2009

Nice thread man and kudos to you! You're absolutely right about what Chris Rock said, "Don't wanna the old guy in the club..." it's fucking true! We as human beings are meant to be in marriage, families and etc.. I mean, look at the cave man days - the cave guy didn't bonk just anyone woman in the head then dragged them to his cave and fucked them to get pregnant. Hell, this kinda reminds me of The Hills Has Eyes 2. Anyways, millions if not billions of people are married today and have families!

I know how personally I'll get pissed if there was a omwan that I was interested in blew some guy in a bathroom at a club. We are all humans who need to have companionship, commitment, and TRUE love! Everyone wakes up and wonders, "When will I find that special someone!" I bet sometimes maybe a MPUA looks in the mirror and is fully satified with himself. No, pun intended - You know what I mean and I hope that everyone can look deep down inside themselves and say, "Yeah, I would agree with that!"

Think of this way, a fucking billionare could throw alot of money way and spend on whatever he wants - but does it really make thim that happy, I mean satified that he has 999 billion of dollars in his Bank Account? Probably not! There's too much to do besides playing women , or spending money, or whatever! Look at these actors, porn stars, super models are they Fully Happy with themselves? Probably not! There's something in everyone of us that lacks something - yet sometimes fame, power, status doesn't really fulfill it!

I mean, hell - wanna know shitty life! I have fetal Alcohol Spetrum Disorder which is caused from a woman drinkning during pregnacy. I'm in a process of going to seminars, conferences, just got done with a documentary warning woman of causes due to drinking during pregancy. I'm not going too much in detail but I do plan on writing a book about the struggles I had with FASD - I currently live in a agency that helps with Depression because long time ago I wasn't really using my head and got rejected alot.

Anyhow, people on this forum are a big family - I stated it in my previous posts along time ago! Personally, I'm sure many people can agree with me on this one - the reasons why some people wanted to become a PUA is to become better with women, to know what they're like and to understand them more, so later on they won't get broken hearted or like you said struggle with divorce! Divorce in the united states are fucking huge! I know this is long but hey I really loved your thread man!

Yeah, some people like to show off to other non-believers that it's possible to hook up with chicks - but like you said or maybe I just interpret it my way of saying (we're all meant to find the true love in our lives). It's alright to have sex with some hot chick - but however, we're all humans! Women are humans, yeah pussy's great and all but if you have someone throwing themselves at you to love and be there for you like (mother tiger) then that's a fucking devoted, commited relationship! Women, probably think and probably still do after a one night stand, "When in the hell am I gonna find Mr. Right!" Because they too want someone that they can feel loved back - not just "oh, yah fuck me harder baby!" kinda thing! Even the Slutty ones want to find true love but they're kinda fucked up in their lives right now that they're so confused and don't know what they really want - possibly due to their early child hood traumas.

There has to be a balance in life that will bring Order from Chaos. This was the most important quote that I read in a Wicca Book.

I'm fucking starving and can't really concentrate that much but however, I really like what you had to say and I hope people that don't have their heads up their ass will listen to this guy - because YOU THE MAN!

Kudos man!

_________________
"Women Love What They Can't Have!"

My official underground website

http://f4fc0878.linkbucks.com