Every woman that ever gets approached by a guy, consciously or subconsciously thinks the same thing:
"This guy is trying to get into my pants. I'll give him a chance to impress me."

Why do women think this? Because it's true! Men are dogs by nature. Any man of any age wants to have sex with beautiful women ASAP. We are built to spread our seed with as many genetically gifted women as possible. This begs the question; Are men who go up and act totally like they are the shit and do not show any politeness towards women actually being more genuine than 95% of the rest of the male population. My answer? Yes, yes they are.

Nice guys are the real liars in society. Those guys that go up and act all polite to women, complementing right away and doing favors for them. They are trying to convey on the surface that they do not want sex and want to be that long-term relationship guy who will be an excellent father for her kids. What a load of bull. While many guys may actually be wanting this consciously (most aren't), they fucking shouldn't be. Why should a guy try to sell himself as a long-term boyfriend/husband when he barely knows a girl? This is men hiding their true nature and true intent, or this is men being desperate.

The jerk or the C+F guy is someone who is actually true to his nature. Even if he lies on the surface by using canned routines or by making up pre-selection scenarios, his general mind-set and attitude is absolutely congruent with his intent. He never puts a woman on a pedestal because she hasn't earned it. He never goes out of his way to be chivalrous or polite (holding the door is about the extent) to beautiful women, because he is not lying to them. He, along with the nice guy, does not want a long term relationship with a girl he doesn't know, so why the hell would he act like it?

Nice guys are the liars out there, and women know this. Almost every man has the same intent, and the nice guys are the ones who are trying to hide it. Women pick up on this and it is for this reason that they often dismiss this all-too-common archetype. You are being disingenuous and at the same time selling a product that she probably doesn't want to buy. Why would she want a great father figure and husband from a guy she doesn't know? She would much rather grab that guy who is honest and cocky for the short term, then maybe turn him into that man she wants for long term.

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Agree with you 100% my friend.

I think you are a bit right, I did come off kinda strong. I have nothing against being nice, in fact I am a nice person myself. But when it comes to trying to woo attractive women, men go out of their way to be nice to them. This is what I am talking about, not about being a good person in general. Men who go out of their way to be nice to women that they hope to bed are the real liars that I am concerned with.

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I tend to agree. You won't ever hear me talking about going for the f-close, because I'm just not that way. Not everyone gets into the game for that reason. Sounds more like the poster is just trying to justify being a jerk.

I didn't say that. The jerk/C+F guy doesn't necessarily say to a woman that he wants to have sex with her, he just doesn't lie to her by acting really nice and pretending he doesn't want that. Towards beautiful female strangers? Yes, I am. I'm not advocating being a total asshole though. My version of the 'jerk' is that guy who doesn't give a shit and doesn't hide behind politeness. He is open to tease and banter anyone, and never puts any stranger on a pedestal for beauty or any other reason.

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Sounds like Plethora cracked open David Deangelo's book lol.

Completely correct stuff.
Hobbit, in the seduction community "nice" is synonymous with supplicating. Why is this conventional in this particular community? That's because most guys who come to us who are called "nice" are indeed just making the mistake of supplication and having an overall value-sucking personality. In terms of men that actually have value-giving personalities and express themselves sincerely, being "nice" is a whole different thing for them. We in the community don't like to call this actual attractive behavior "nice" because it creates a cognitive dissonance that confuses us with the value-sucking supplicating definition. Instead, a lot of us just call that being a "good" guy.

I thought this was a good post. Like Plethora admitted, it may have come off a bit extreme, but I think he makes a great point about the underlying tones that distinguish the "jerk" and "nice guy" pick-ups. There is much more confusion around a "nice" guy's efforts to escalate things sexually, which is why I think a lot of us (yeah, I'm one of them) have a tendency to end up getting LJBFed a lot or just go crazy when the woman isn't responding to escalation attempts.

With the C/F "jerk" type, the message comes off pretty clearly right up front: I'm interested in you and I plan to have sex with you. The girl knows what to expect, and the rest of the dance is really a matter of her finding out if she's is interested in him. There is no real ambiguity about what "interested" means here, and it makes for a much simpler set of decisions and reactions. Reo made a good post about this a few weeks ago, which also may have been a bit extreme, but I thought it did a great job of highlighting the difference.

With the nice guy, there is ambiguity every step along the way: a girl is constantly having to determine if something the guy says or does is just "friendly" nice, "he's into me" nice, or "creepy manipulative" nice. I don't think any woman has an issue with guys being nice, but they want to understand why. Also, it's much more typical for incongruent actions to occur in the nice guy frame. There are likely to be more sticking points if the girl misinterprets something, and when a nice guy hits a sticking point and comes to a site like this to find what turns out to be a really alpha way of overcoming it, he may not realize that the incongruence is more likely to mess things up. At one point a girl can feel like "this is going really well and this guy is so cool" and then all of a sudden he's going caveman all over her or just says something that comes off as really mean (because he was such a nice guy before...) and she freaks out.

Anyhow, I do think that nice guys are able to win in the end, but it's harder: you have to be a lot more sensitive to the signals coming from the woman, and a lot more consistent and subtle in the manner in which you communicate and escalate. I have had okay success as a "nice guy" over the years, and guys like Hobbit seem to have developed a really refined game that makes it possible to flourish in the nice guy mold, so there's definitely hope if you don't want to be a jerk. However, I think the reality is that the direct C/F approach (it's probably an overstatement to call it the "Jerk" approach) is more consistent with the way a lot of guys are actually thinking. And in the end, being genuine about yourself and your intentions - and adopting a style that is consistent with that - probably matters more than the merits of either one.

Again I think that the community needs to stop using labels and terminology because it's not actually making things better, it's making things LESS clear and misleading people. Using "nice" as a synonym for "supplicating" is a stupid thing to do in my opinion. That makes guys think that they can't actually be nice and they end up becoming jerks and saying stuff like, "Are men who go up and act totally like they are the shit and do not show any politeness towards women actually being more genuine than 95% of the rest of the male population. My answer? Yes, yes they are." No offense Plethora, I think you're a good guy, I blame the community's general mindset for this.

We need to stop limiting ourselves by using standardized terminology and saying stuff like "being nice means you're supplicating" cause it isn't accurate. Yes, many nice guys are "Nice Guys" and they supplicate in order to try and impress women, which isn't the right way to do it, but the best guys I know are highly skilled with interacting with women, yet they are still really nice. Johnny Soporno and Sean Messenger are both very nice guys and they're amazing with women and men as well.

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You're right. When I think 'Nice Guy,' I think of the supplicating guy that bides for attractive women's attention and at the same time puts on a total facade of being really complementary and courteous. I really think another word or phrase should be used because there is nothing at all wrong with being nice, guys In that quote I am talking about being genuine and congruent, not about what you should do. I think a healthy balance is needed between being C+F and being genuinely good. I, however, took the extreme side in my argument because almost every single guy I see is too far on the other extreme. If you already have that healthy balance or you have already found a place in your game where you feel most comfortable (and successful), then this probably won't be too relative to you.

It's like the concept of 'take everything a woman does as an IOI.' This is an extreme and simply isn't true, but it is completely opposite to the extreme that most men believe that 'nothing short of a SOI from a woman is an IOI.' The former is probably more accurate. If you are like most guys and are wondering all the time 'is she interested?' then by internalizing the first concept you will probably land on a healthy balance between the two.

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Be careful with that mentality man. If you're trying to offset things by taking it to the other extreme, then you end up over-doing it that way still and other people may follow your example, not just decide on a healthy medium and it affects YOU as well, cause now you've gone past a healthy middle ground. Lead by example and just find that middle ground and show people that's where things are best.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye