Beautiful women can ATTRACT men easier, but that doesn't mean they can hold onto them (for more than sex). TO maintain a good relationship with a high value man she will need more than looks. First women need to understand men. Understand how they think and what they want--but that doesn't mean they give into them blindly. A woman still has to stick up for herself and respect her self (or else he won't). Things such as negs don't work as well on guys as they do on women. If a woman attacks a man's ego too much he will think she is not interested or lose confidence to make a move. But teasing and banter is good. Push/pull is great because you have to make a man work for you. If you don't get him to invest he will lose interest--you can't be too easy for him, but you can't be unattainable.


As for less attractive women, there was a thread a while ago on this topic. Men weigh appearance a lot more heavily than women. I think the guys who posted agreed that she cannot be COMPLETELY unattractive...and the less attractive she is, the more her personality needs to shine. She also will have to have a stong frame and be a lot more up front and sexual from the beginning.

Bonita explained it nicely

I have the problem of actually holding onto a guy. Even though I consider myself attractive I am actually a pretty shy person. I have had to learn to become more social over the years.

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"To Give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift" -Prefontaine

Not a PUA just a girl offering my opinions/advice

Thanks Killians

Tell me...do you try and help out your friends with PUA? I have told my one friend about PUA so she understands but is a skeptic and I haven't told my other friends. So when they come to me for advice they don't believe the stuff I say works....their loss, but whatever.

Would a girl prefer for the guy to be like "I don't think we have chemistry/ this isn't working out," etc.

or..

To just slowly backoff from the situation. Sorta "take a hint" style.

I prefer the first (bandaid theory), but I hate doing it! What do ya think??

Any good techniques for "reverse" LJBF?

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Make Moves

Swoop

Bonita, since you repeatedly mentioned the term ”high value men” im curious about your definition of this term. is it the pickup skills, wealth, power, social standing, profession or whatever floats your boat. As of the material iv read so far and through my personal night game exp, one’s profession or wealth doesnt seem be a big deal and sometimes only put you as a potential target to be manipulated since u r the rich guy who can pay for drinks. This s especially true if you work in a highly specialized field high up on the ladder that no one can personally relate to, such as a neurosurgeon or a CEO of a funding organization, no one has the slightest idea of what exactly those people do and if I were to explain it, it ll just get too technical and bore ppl out, especially since everyone is more or less intoxicated. So the end result is often a short burst of admiration which you cant use for shit and then that s it.

So whats your take on this?

Although it may hurt her to say it, the first option is your better choice. If you slowly back off she will even be more distraught because she won't know why you are doing it. Women have this problem that any time someone (male or female) starts to back away emotionally, they think that person hates them. Then they sit there thinking about it all the time and relates it to their past interactions with them to make sense of it. So if you back away she will just ponder what it is she has done to cause this but she will never get a real answer and will actually become overly aggressive in pursuing you. She will call you more etc...which will only turn you off more bc she will be a clinger. If you are going to give a woman space you have to let her know the reason....it will pay off in the end, but yes, you can let her down nicely.

I honeslty wouldn't try and be too coy about it. While women deal out a fair amount of shit tests, they can sense when someone is playing them. Compliment her and tell her she is a cool girl but that you just want to be friends. And then most importantly...follow up on it! Be her friend and hang out. I've had guys that did the subtle draw away thing and tried to just be friends with me but the problem with that is I didn't catch on at first. I still liked them and when they scaled back, I chased them and invested more in them to get them to like me which made my feelings for them stronger. If a girl does that, it will be much harder to break to her later that you just want to be friends, you see? And as an fyi...I have learned the error of my ways

I'm so glad that you asked this! I think there is a common misconception of what a high value man is. A high value man does not have to be rich or have the most prestigious job. A high value man is a man that you should be with if you could take away everything society tells you about success (im speaking from an American perspective here). A high value man is strong (not necessarily physically, but emotionally, and mentally). A strong man does not bend at every beck and call of a woman; he stands up for and respects himself. But at the same time he as to know when to bend and not be rigid and selfish. A woman should be with a man that treats her fairly...not looks down on her. A high value man has class...not to be confused as pompous...that is not class, it is actually a lack of class. A man of value should be smart, but doesnt have to be a genius or go to an Ivy League school. He doesnt have to be rich but should have a job and not slacking and free loading off others. He should have dreams and ambitions and a passion for something in life. He should know how to treat a woman. And he should not be immature.

Ok so I just started to list stuff off in no particular order and I may have missed things. But all-in-all a high value man is someone that is respected by others not for his money/fame/job, but for who he is as a person. Sometimes high value men have money/fame/a high profile job , but by no means are those characteristics of a high value man. A man without those can still make you happy if he is a high value man.

Whew, time for me to weigh in. First, my response to things Bonita said -- after all, neither men nor women all think alike. Specifically, I agree with you on the "smile!" urging; if I'm in a bad mood, I'll smile just to get the guy to piss off. Any cute back-rubbing, etc. at that point just creates anger, because the guy has shown that 1) he doesn't believe she has a good reason to be upset, belittling her feelings; and 2) he doesn't care if she's not in the mood to be flirty. Not only that, but it comes off as patronizing.
Yes, attractive women are also very self-conscious. Usually in a good way (the I'm-the-bestest sort of feeling), but at the same time, once you've got a reputation, you feel like you have to work to maintain it. Sinn seems to be pretty right-on with most of what he says.
Similarly, I agree wholeheartedly that attractive women can be rotten at social interactions. That was me, and I'm guessing that you (Bonita) also had some of that going on... hence, the draw of PU. Personally, I've been using it more for social capital than anything, but there's also an element of preparing for when I'm single again.

Still, I have to disagree with your first couple of statements about whistling and such. The first couple of times, it's cute and strokes the girl's ego. The next couple of times, it's annoying. After that, it makes her feel like everyone's staring at her -- and not in an "I'm the queen of the world" sort of way. Instead, it's the "everyone's scrutinizing me" way. It goes without saying that no one should ever continue to solicit attention from a woman on the street without overt positive feedback.

Finally, responding to some comments from Rye (especially about the "slut" image)...

For the most convincing rebuttal to this, I'd suggest that you visit Bonita's thread about tips for a female pua. Wonder who this "society" is? Have a look at what your fellow male puas say. Direct approaches are "intimidating"; several guys say that "slutty" is the wrong approach, especially if the woman wants to receive any respect. I find this ironic, in a community where guys lament the last-minute resistance (hell, it has its own trendy acronym) that is attributed to the perceived "slut" image. If it works against them, why do guys continue to use this term?
On the other hand, guys can get the "bad boy" image working for them a lot more easily than women do. We're much more frequently expected to be cute, and, combining a couple of comments in this thread, we're judged much more on our looks, which are generally held to be better when we give that brilliant smile. And you should know better than most that we're not all judged the same way: isn't that the basis of this entire community? (I.e., the concept that women can get laid by going out half-naked, while guys resort to pua tactics.)

You've got a lot of good sense, Rye... but there are indeed plenty of guys who are put off by the direct approach, and think that women who come on to them aren't also seeking respect.

Excellent, excellent thread. Bonita, we've got some talkin' to do.

Hey girl...it's excellent to have another girl on the forum! Thanks for the support on the thread, and yes, we will need to talk and exchange some ideas.

I actually got into PUA because I'm really into psychology, not because of my social skills. I actually haven't really changed anything about the way I interact with guys...now I just know the technical terms.

But you bring up a good point that I was not able to put clearly into words...guys say this "society's view" excuse is BS and shouldn't exist, but it clearly does exist amongst men and women because if a womanis too forward with a man at first (even if she is genuinely interested) she comes off as "slutty" and the guy does not respect her. So good point there jackdove.

But I do have to maintain my stance on the whistling...the reason why a woman would get offended is because she is not interested in the guy showing her the attention. Women like the social validation. And although you may not be into the guy whistling at you, his positive rating of you lets you know that you are looking good to someone, which means other people (who aren't whistling) maybe finding you attractive as well. I mean, have you ever had a night where you got all dressed up and thought you were looking great but no one said that you looked great? Did it make you second guess yourself? But if just one person said you look great, then you assume that when other people are looking at you that they are thinking the same thing.

Ok, this is getting long...we will talk soon I'm sure.

The guys that use that term tend to be the sexually insecure guys. The real ironic part is the definition of the word slut. According to Webster slut means a promiscuous woman. So in away guys are using the word correctly but are framing the word as an insult.
I get that girls in general don't want to be viewed as meat by guys. But you also have to keep in mind that guys in general are visual. Hence the reason why we are more attracted to physical looks.

The problem with girls approaching guys, especially if they are to forward is society. For years guys where suppose to do the approaching and not the girls. Now the girls are starting to do it and it is changing things up. Some guys view this as a challenge to their manly hood, while others do view it as the girl actually being slutty as they think the girl just wants sex (you have to keep in mine women approaching men is fairly new), and other guys are just not use to it yet. It is going to take a lot more women approaching guys and some time before guys in general stop thinking that if some girl approaches them that she is a slut.

It will also help if girls stop dressing like "sluts" as well. I mean lets get real here. If some girl in tight short clothing approaches some guy she is truly interested in, what are the chances he is one going to take her seriously, let alone respect her? I get that girls want to be treated with respect and I fully agree with that, but its a bit hard to respect a girl that is half naked in tight clothes. I am not saying girls need to stop dressing sexy. But if girls don't wear clothes that show that they respect their body then why should she expect a guy will respect her? Respect is earned not given.

The problem with studies like the one you linked to is that they don't see preference and attraction as two separate concepts.

Preference is a choice. Attraction is not; it's what you feel regardless of a conscious decision of what you think you like.

I'm a shorter guy (5'5''-5'7'' I forgot) and I've been with girls taller than me. In fact, my first girlfriend was like a foot taller than me or something like that. I actually PREFER girls that are my height or shorter, but I dated her because I like blondes and she was a popular blonde girl at my school lol.

Of course girls are going to SAY that they are more "attracted" to better looking, taller guys, but that's actually all a matter of preference. Real attraction comes from how the guy makes her feel through his "game."

Remember: Attraction is much more of a learned skill than something that happens by chance through something like your looks or height. Preference is a separate concept.

To answer your question directly, jurupa: Yes. Girls are socially programmed to prefer taller guys. Does that have any effect on a guy's potential for dating/sexual success on an individual level? No.

Chief I understand your point clearly. What the study and researchers are arguing though is not only height a preference, but a subconscious facet of attractiveness as well. Can't prove it or disprove it though bc it is the unconscious. Anytime you want a theory to stick around forever, just blame it on the subconscious bc it can't be disproven (like freud). But the main basis for it is that scientist believe that women are predisposed to seek out taller males because height is a sign of of dominance; it is assumed that these taller men will protect them and be fertile. Taller men also make more money (on average) than shorter men and are seen as more dominant in the business world; most CEO's are tall. These facts have nothing to do with attraction. So while your point it valid Chief, they are claiming that it isn't just about attraction, it is that women are biologically predisposed to seek out taller men for survival.

.....and while on the topic....men are biologically predispositioned to seek out attractive and healthy female because they are most likely to be fertile.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles ... 030&page=5 read page 5, the paragraph right before "Love at First Sight". But the entire article is great and I urge everyone to read it.

Oh believe me I understand that argument very well, but I believe there is a flaw in your argument.

After taking classes that explore these exact topics, particularly Evolutionary Psychology, I came to understand how important survival and reproductive value is in the attraction game. Yes, I understand that. However, I see a huge disconnect between height and survival value.

Now, I may just be saying this out of bias since I'm a shorter guy, but combining what I've learned in the field of psychology with my limited knowledge on sociology (I admit I only took an introductory class) I have come to the conclusion that height has only a socially constructed correlation with modern society's flawed interpretation of survival value (like monetary income).

I know from first hand experience that taller does not necessarily equate to being more fit to fight, hunt, protect, defend, or any of that stuff that makes a man more attractive to women through survival value.

Modern society interprets height as a measure of dominance because it's just a convenient explanation to fall back on, kind of like how it was convenient for the ancient Greeks to personify the forces of nature around them into Zeus and Aphrodite to explain phenomenon. Real attraction digs a lot deeper than the attraction you may perceive from height. Society has constructed height to be an attracting factor that women have habituated a surface-level response to.

The fact of the matter is that the height issue really isn't something that a man should occupy his worries with. Whether you are short or tall, on the level of REAL attraction it makes no fucking difference. Height is all a matter of surface-level preference, and preference, like I've stated before, is a separate concept from attraction.

I would also like to speak to the single most vital topic that harmonizes evolutionary psychology and pickup together: the development of human beings' patterns of socialization and its relation to the alpha male dynamic and S/R value.

Think about this scenario: who will have more survival value? The big tall muscular man with a spiked club or the shorter charismatic man with over 50 other people supporting and loving him and every idea he has? Human beings have evolved so that social skills determine who has more survival value than physical prowess. It's kind of like the whole looks-vs-personality debate. A man with an attractive personality stands out a lot more than a good looking guy who lacks that. Personality is what truly matters in this equation, as is social skills in the S/R value equation.