Okay so I'm out of my asshole mode tonight because I had an awesome talk with my girlfriend and I want to emphases conversation with you folks.

A conversation with a girl should remain beautiful. You could voice your opinion about anything, as long as you have some deep insight on it that uses her imagination. Challenge her. It sets you apart from the others. This is your objective when you first meet her. Set yourself apart from the others.

At some point during a conversation, she's going to ask you questions. It could be anything. Make it simple, say it slow, describe your answer, make her imagine what you are talking about. There is a difference between understanding and imagining. You want her to imagine it.
If you can work her imagination she will be facinated by you. It's very simple.

Magic tricks don't build attraction. Facination and tension does. You don't need cold readings, routines, or even canned openers. These are there to create facination which leads to attraction.

To grab her attention, for example, at a shopping mall and you see her looking at clothes, approach her and speak in statements. She'll feel more comfortable with you. A question will automatically make you come off as curious to what she is doing giving her value. You will be like everyone else-creepy.

You:"I like the blue skirt better than the white one"
HB: "Oh.. Really? Why's that"
You " It brings the color of your eye's out. By the way I'm Beschatten".

How simple was that? You can automatically go into a soul gazing routine right on the spot after that. Speak with delicacy and precision. You could honestly say anything you want when you approach.

There is a time and place for everything. Show her you are fun, be flirty, yet also take the time to be serious and show her you have serious thoughts. Show her a multitude of conversational skills.

After building comfort you can easily transition into different topics. I use a model of first starting off with relationships, then I transition into sex and how it occurred in the relationships. Soon I say things that I like about sex, what I want when I have sex, what I want to give the girl during sex, and how often I like to have it. Don't ever ask her what she wants. Her values will revolve around yours. This demonstrates a lot of things, but most of all she will feel about 10 times more comfortable talking about sex with you, imagine having sex with you, and it automatically begins the process of building up sexual tension.

"My favorite thing about sex is the first time I put it inside of the her. It's a feeling I can't describe. It's overwhelming and for that split second I feel so connected. The warmth is overwhelming as well".

A statement like that will get her imagining it, and it shows her you're not just a manwhore. Some women like that, but all women like a passionate man.

After an escalation of physical contact and sexual tension, you may begin making your moves. Use SOIs. K-close. Caveman her. It is all up to you.

_________________
I'm addicted to facing my fears.

I agreed with everything else you said but this. An attractive guy could say this, but even if an unattractive guy said it in a charming way I think he would till get turned down. She may turn him down nicely if he didnt come off like a total creep but she is going to realize she is being hit on, make an instant judgment as to whether or not she is attracted to him, and if she doesn't find him attractive she will walk away.

you can't hide behind that saying forever hobbit! haha

im saying, that isn't going to work for all guys. yes, women don't put as much emphasis on looks as guys do but we still do put emphasis on looks...and since she has nothing else to judge that guy by except what he just said--then if he is not good looking enough she will not give him the time of day...she will just think he is a creep.

I think you discount "presence" too much; body language, voice tonality, the level of confidence in how he talks and carries himself, etc. I've seen men that aren't terribly attractive pull off things like this MANY times, simply because they were rock solid and knew who the fuck they were and what they wanted. The girl saw this/felt this/knew this and in that split second that you mentioned she decided she was attracted.

As Hobbit says, it isn't a choice, it's subconsious stuff going on in your brain and your body, not conscious thought. Even if you "consciously" look at a person and "decide" that they are attractive to you, you didn't make a choice; your subconscious neural pathways that govern what you find attractive made the connections and that choice was derived from them.

People think too highly of themselves as human beings. We talk about freewill and conscious decisions as if they are things that we are honestly making my taking the time to deliberate. Occassionally this is true when we are weighing the pros and cons of a choice, but even in that situation you often find yourself inexorably drawn to a certain conclusion. This is because all your decisions are based upon the values, beliefs, experience and references held within your brain.

Our brains are simply incredibly powerful computers. You put in any given set of data and that computer will give you the same response every time. The only time that changes is when you use a different computer with a different set of values, beliefs, experiences or references, or if you change any of the above within that computer. So if a person is taught that 1 + 1 = 2, then they will always give you that same answer when asked that question, unless someone comes along and manages to convince them to change that programming and instead think that 1 + 1 = 4.

Same thing goes for dealing with other people. If you encounter a guy that has a certain look about him and you aren't attracted, then unless you yourself change, you won't see him as physically attractive. If he has a way about him that your brain is set to see as attractive though, the confidence, the intelligence, etc, then perhaps your brain will override the physical judgement and tell you you're attracted to him anyways. Happens all the time actually. I've heard at least a hundred women tell me that they weren't attracted to a guy at first, but then "something about him" made them change their minds. That's exactly what happened.

So next time Hobbs states that attraction isn't a choice, remember what he means by it is this. As a psych student I expect that you're probably familiar with these concepts, but maybe hadn't put it all together before now. Not trying to sound like a pompous ass or anything, it happens to me all the time.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Umm that was just an example, but like Rye put it, it's all about inner game and how you say it via body/voice language. It works.

_________________
I'm addicted to facing my fears.

My dear Rye,

I actually didn't feel patronized until that last paragraph of yours. Hobbit and I talked this out on the chat to make things more clear. This was my argument and final conclusion....

I am talking about physical attraction. Not attraction to a persons body language, attitude, or personality. Furthermore, Hobbit and I distinguished the difference between physical attractiveness and hygeine. As demonstrated on The Pick Up Artist-2, they made over some of those guys and now I would classify a couple as "hot" but others still are not attractive to me.

Also I am referring to attractiveness as it is needed in dating relationships, not sex. For sex, if you turn someone on enough, their physical appearance does not matter.

All that said, my point it, attractiveness is subjective. I agree it is not a choice, but that doesn't mean that you have to be, and are, attracted to everyone! Men are more visual so you base who you approach mostly on looks. Do you find EVERY girl attractive. If you say "yes" then you are lying. Not every girl is attractive to you. Maybe if she cleaned up her look or lost some weight...but it is possible to not be physically attracted to someone. Now I think there is too much emphasis on the fact that women put less weight on the physical appearance of men. Yes it is true, but that doesn't mean that we will fawn over the hunchback or notre dame. Although most women won't find the hunchback attractive, there might be someone who finds him sexy. So my point is, you don't have to be UNIVERSALLY attractive, but that individual has to find you attractive. It may not be her conscious choice as to whether you are attractive or not, but if her subconscious does not find you attractive, you can't retort with " attraction is not a choice" and that will clear everything up and make her like him. Some girls do change their mind I agree...you can find someone attractive that you didn't before...but you cannot say that a really ugly guy can pick up ANY girl because he is a PUA. PUAs strike out too. Mystery strikes out.

So let's recap:
-Attraction is not a choice
-Attraction is subjective
-You don't have to be universally attractive, but the individual you are picking up must find you attractive
-Hygeine can be changed to increase attractiveness
-It is possible to find someone physically unattractive
-For a long-lasting DATING relationship, you must be physically and emotionally attracted to your partner.
-Let me stress one more time, attractiveness is subjective


That senerio Beschatten laid out...the reason why I said it won't work in every senario is because when you approach a women with some line like that, she is either going to allow you to speak to her that way or not allow you to based on your looks. If she "subconsciously" deems you as attractive dateable she will play into it. If she does not think you are attractive and dateable she will think you are a creep. You could have a one guy run that game on her and she will swoon and 10 minutes later (assuming you knock her on the head and give her amnesia) have another guy run the same game on her and she may be cold to him. For, instance, if Danny DiVito said that to me I would think he is a creep no matter how strong his frame is. I have nothing else to base my opinion on than his looks. I will subconsciously decided if he is attractive then consciously decide to accept or reject him. Looks matter to women too...but a guy that is not attractive to one woman may be attractive to another.

Bonita I would appreciate it if you did not post irrelevant things in my post.
This topic is purely about being a conversationalist and using imagery and facination within conversation with women. Not universal laws of attraction and inner game. So please, save it for your own posts and dont create a debate about irrelevant subjects to my topic.

The bottom line is, it was just a scenario I came up with off the top of my head and I'm sorry if it offended you.

The second bottom line is, and the point of this topic is to show that conversation isn't impossible and if you can get a girl thinking and visualizing during pick up or conversation, it can lead to success. REGARDLESS of LOOKS.
Many PUA's have proven and driven this point home. Another matter is there is no such thing as "rejection". But I'll save that for another time. And for the sake of everyone else, if you choose to disagree PM it to me so it doesnt fuel a big fire.

_________________
I'm addicted to facing my fears.

I'm sorry darlin, like I said I wasn't trying to be patronizing, I was actually trying to give hommage to your already solid understanding of psych; I threw in that one bit because I knew it just wasn't gonna come off right.


I don't understand why you're basing the interaction upon physical attractiveness, when if he's piques her interest based upon his manner she'd probably be more likely to continue talking with him than she would if she simply physically attracted.
Personally I'd rather have sex with someone who has a pleasing personality rather than just a pleasing intellect. Again, this may just be me, or perhaps it's a guy thing to do with us being more visually stimulated or whatever (I definitely agree that women still put a decent chunk of weight upon physical attractiveness, not gonna argue there). I could have sex with someone who's personality I didn't like (c'mon angry sex, I just have a feeling it would be great) if a moment happened, but I have had moments happen with girls I wasn't physically attracted to and even though she was turning me on and wanted me, I was consciously telling myself not to go there, cause I just wasn't physically attracted and it would be....difficult....as a man....if ya know what I mean. I just can't even picture myself kissing someone I wasn't phsyically attracted to without cringing. Call me shallow, but that's just how it is.
I agree. No one is attractive to everyone. Not physically and definitely not personality/emotionally-wise.

What I'd say is that people tend to look for things to find attractive in a person that they are emotionally attracted to. So if at first glance a person isn't physically attractive, but then they spark your interest with something they are saying, so you might examine them looking for things you might have missed and that you find physically attractive. I know I do it when I'm attracted to someone's personality, but not physically; I'll look to see if there might be something I've missed that changes my mind, because it's harder to find someone that I'm emotionally attracted to than physically.

Many guys get written off initially because of a first glance, but if you check them out for a minute you can see how they are attractive and if you're attracted to their personality it is more likely to happen. Thus if a guy has an amazingly attractive personality and he isn't ugly, he just isn't a gorgeous, then he's much more likely to have girls notice things about him that they find attractive.

I'm not saying that conversation > looks, I'm just saying that good conversation increases the odds of noticing hidden looks (that sounds like it deserves a 12 sided dice rpg game symbol... I should make a t-shirt http://www.splitreason.com/product/258# )
Again, like I said, I think presence plays into that judgement as well as looks. I don't think Danny DiVito has a very attractive voice or way of carrying himself, so I can't see you enjoying a line like that from him. But I think if he were to change how he talks and the way he carries himself, then I could see that line working for him. Perhaps not from you because you may never find him attractive and no matter how good his personality was, you still wouldn't go there.

I could say the same about a lot of women that I've met; sometimes no matter how amazing a person they are, I'm just not gonna be able to even pretend I'm attracted and they'll get brushed off just like you'd brush off a gross creepy guy. So don't think that this is something unique to women, because guys have to deal with the same situations too. I've literally had to pry girls' hands off of me because they figured I was a guy and I couldn't possibly refuse sex. I've also met women that I was totally unnattracted to at first and ended up thinking they were sexy as hell.

My understanding of the phrase "attraction is not a choice" is that you are not consciously making the choice to be attracted to a person or not, your subconscious does that for you. If a person is either highly skilled at faking and being manipulative or just an amazing person, then they will be able to trigger those subconscious attraction switches and cause people that they desire to be attracted to them more easily. That means that if a person isn't initially attracted to you, then you can cause them to go through that whole re-evaluation thing, but you'll also be able to make yourself a more attractive person right off the bat by knowing what looks turn a person on.

Hell, girls used to tell me that I was ugly and funny looking and all sorts of horrible things. I got teased by guys in school about having a long neck and all sorts of stupid shit that basically convinced me I was ugly. Now girls approach me and tell me that I'm good looking and other guys in the community say shit like, "well it's easy for you cause you're a good looking guy." Do I look entirely different than I did 5 years ago? A little, but most of it is just the way I carry myself, cause when I'm in a shitty headspace people don't even look twice at me and guys talk shit about me still.

I've developed presence though and that is a powerful thing to have when you're trying to attract someone. Women look at me and are able to see my confidence, my good mood, my sense of fun and my sexuality just by how I carry myself, so that's what I use, not lines. If they were to look at me and choose whether to be attracted, then it's quite probable that a lot less people would say I'm attractive. I've still got a long neck, I wear glasses sometimes, I'm not overly tall (just 5'10"), my ears still stick out (you just don't notice cause of the piercings) and I don't have a 6-pack; but attraction isn't a choice and subconsciously they become attracted to me.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Don't over react and get your panties in a twist Besch. Her post is entirely relevant because we're discussing the balance between physical attraction and the value of conversation skills.

There's a saying about how once you release your idea upon the public, it is no longer your property and they can interpret it in any way they see fit regardless of how you intended it. Just because someone doesn't agree with something you said and they choose to debate it rather than commend you on it, doesn't mean you can tell them to take it elsewhere. THIS IS WHAT A FORUM IS.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Get off my back Rye, you know that's not what I meant.

Who said anyone disagreed? I made up a simple, almost stupid example, and it turns into this shit show. I'm on your side on trying to drive home the idea that being physically attractive is miniscule compared to how well you are able to communicate via conversations and body language. I'm not the one ranting about how beautiful people get away with everything.

_________________
I'm addicted to facing my fears.

No Besch, I don't know what you mean. That's the way communication works, I can only assume the meaning that I read from what you've said. "Meaning isn't what you intend, it's what the other person perceives" - Introducing NLP

Bonita disagreed with what you said and whether you think it's warranted or not doesn't matter, she disagreed and contested it, so it's able to be debated upon. That's just how an open forum works man. I would say the exact same thing if you were Mystery; that's just how an open forum works.

It's not about sides, it's about coming to a more full and complete understanding of the concepts being discussed. You shouldn't get upset over it, you should take the opportunity to expound upon your views and doing so will not only give others a better understanding of what you think, but it will also allow you to come to a better understanding of what you think as well.

Now, let's get back on topic.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I think Rye said it well. So I'll leave it at that. I just chose that example because it was there but I was using it merely to demonstrate that I do not believe conversation skills can win a girl over if physical attraction is not there because she might not give you the chance to redeem yourself and continue if she doesn't find you attractive. Please accept criticism better. A lot of people are on your side, I'm just stating my opinion which IS relevant.

So only pretty boys go far with women?

_________________
I'm addicted to facing my fears.

Would you date a girl that you found physically unnattractive, yet had great conversation skills? I'd just be friends with her. What would you do?

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

That is why I said, physical attraction is subjective. He doesn't have to be universally attractive but that individual woman needs to find him attractive. I'm sure there are plenty of women that you don't find attractive but they are in relationships which means someone else finds them attractive....it's the same principle.