if i have no game how do i expect to attract a woman? i didnt have game before now and attracted no one. i have ocnfidence but it doesnt seem to work. i have a little game now but it is still yet to give me success. im now confused as to what to do.

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"I learnt my passion in the good old fashoned school of lover boy!"

this is really deep stuff. rye has a cool sticky on interesting posts that everyone should read, and theres one from this guy named chris who argues that the community is corrupted and really screwed over nowadays. i recommend it to anyone

It's all well and good to say that being properly in love is better than having sex with countless numbers of girls, and I completely agree with that, BUT things don't happen like in films! If u really like a girl for real but have no game it's pretty unlikely u'll end up with her, instead u go into the friend zone. That's why u need game, to be able to get past this... otherwise the only way of meeting 'the one' is with a hell of a lot of luck, and personally I'd rather have the choice of knowing how to get a girl who I like attracted to me than hoping I don't end up as another friend.
It's probably a valid point that if you've been gaming for a long time u forget that getting girls u want is fucking hard with no knowledge of PUA... and I don't believe that guys who've been gaming a long lime can just 'turn off' game when their with a certain special girl either. It becomes internalised and you become a more confident and attractive person at all times, because of PUA.
What I'm saying is I think pretty much every guy in the world would really benefit from knowing the principles of PUA, you can't just call it a lie! (although I see the point being made!)

Learning "the game" is just equipping them with the skills; what they do with those skills is up to them. I have always thought of the game from your perspective as well Sean. Which is probably why when I communicate my advice with some guys they misunderstand me because they are thinking purely about sex. I agree with your view but also see and agree with the other side. Many of the guys that join the community join because they have never met a women. Some don't know what it feels like to hold a woman or be held and they just want that feeling. They might be young and inexperienced. While you say your count isn't high compared to others, some of these guys just want to say they have had a sexual experience just to know what it is like. It is easy to say that you should wait until you find someone you really connect with when you are no longer yearning for that experience.

But like I said, I am at the point in my life where I understand you and agree with you. But others can't even make that active choice to sleep around or not because they do not have good social skills. So "the game", meaning the actual social skills, is not a lie...it works....but once you have those skills you must use them wisely.

This has been an interesting thread, and has really made me think about my views on the community and the game itself. The game is only a lie if you learn and do it for reasons not true to you. Sure some guys are just after some cheap thrills and if thats them being true to themselves then thats their business, but "the game" goes much deeper for others and for me.

I spent my whole high school career and my first two years of college alone on weekend nights. I've never been out for Valentine's Day. My first and only kiss was actually after graduating high school and my first real date didn't come until my sophomore year of college. I've watched my best friend and many others have children. I've watched three of my friends get married, will be in one of my good friends' wedding this summer, and have even watched one go through a bitter divorce. I had a similar epiphany to you, Sean, not all that long ago. I sat in a hammock on the porch enjoying a cigar, a beer, and the cool fall air when I realized that I've watched the best years of my life go by with only a few really good friends and without a single reciprocated meaningful relationship with a woman.

Sean, I don't know if you wrote the words that appear when your picture in the banner is clicked, but a few of them rang especially true to me:
That pretty much sums it up for me... I'm not on here and staring at a book for an hour a day to get any "HB" I want or whatever, I'm here so when I do find the one I want to be with I have the confidence and the tools to do something about it. I pretty much just want to be a better me.

I wrote those words, bro, and that's awesome to hear where you are going.

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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

I somewhat agree. The pressure to approach approach approach is something that drove me away from PUA in the start. Sure, I tried, and then I realized that I really don't like approaching. It isn't fear or AA, but that I'm not interested in someone until they give me a reason to be interested. I think you know where approaching without any interest at all gets you. If not...well, it doesn't exactly make the conversation or the approach easy when you have to convince yourself that the person you're talking to has some value hidden away in some deep corner of their mind.

As for where I disagree, well, I haven't yet come up with a way to put it into words that sounds right. Everything I've figured out so far sounds too negative, so I'll just have to keep thinking about how to phrase it.

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And I lift my glass to the awful truth
Which you can't reveal to the years of youth
Except to say it isn't worth a dime

"The Game" was written to make money for a publisher. Simple as that. Major publishers don't publish something that can't be marketed. The fact of the matter is that real life is not sexy enough to sell.

Remember, most on this board are young boys who learn about life from rap videos and movies. Being able to spend your time running around picking up tramps sounds very adult to them.

So do what you need to do. You see a girl you like GO FOR IT balls out. No regrets. No holding back. No fucking "game."


Thats what I did 2 years back. Really liked this girl, and decided to invest everything I had into getting her to reciprocate feelings.

Guess what, I came across as a total AFC, crashed and burnt and had my confidence shattered.

The game is not the bible to happiness. It merely equips you with skills so that you can confidently undertake your journey.

The game is the lesson and training, that is the truth. How people decide to interprete it and use their skills, is controversial.

Basically, I'm saying this to the original poster, you have great advice and you have your heart in the right place, but you do have to recognise that it is not the game that is dehumanising relationships and what not, its the people who choose to practice their skills for mere physical validation.

Apologies if this point has already been made, I am somewhat in a hurry and did not have the time to read every post made!

it's time to move guys beyond the game and into what Sean calls Higher Game. It entails becoming a better man, being yourself and owning your life... This is about being real, genuine and authentic. About being you, not some fake, carefully choreographed and rehearsed pickup artist. Eventually you will find a woman you want to be real with, what do you do when you attracted her by being fake?



Ok I just came across that and have to say that I agree with every single word.

It sounds like you are equating MM to the game, which I never really subscribed to. The game in my eyes is taught by various people, such as David D who strongly strongly advocates self improvement above acting.

But even so, a few gimmicks here and there in the wooing process wouldn't hurt lol

Dude, THAT was a "game!"

Don't you see it? You did everything you could to get her to "reciprocate" feelings? You invested everything without even really knowing who she was, and with no idea how she felt?

That is some old-school PUA shit right there. That is exactly the same kind of thing a dude does when he reads some indirect shit and follows steps to create a response in a woman, thinking it's all under his control.

We never control the feelings of others. We only control our own actions. So if you act with an open heart and courage, and go for what you want, and pay attention, and don't take it personally when it doesn't work, then you are not playing games.

No woman can make you happy, so stop looking for it. Make yourself happy, and then share it.

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Sean Messenger
http://LVo3.com

"War is not the answer. Love is."

Good post.

However I love (sarcasm) your idea that people force themselves to sleep with girls. Like it's something they hate, but they do it "becuase they have to".

I do whatever feels natural with my life, what feels good, and for me as an INDIVIDUAL.

Monogamy has yet to feel really "right", it has done before, but not to the extent that would make me settle down, it might do someday but not now, not at the moment.

Telling yourself that you want to sleep with lots of women is just as much a lie as tellign yourself that you don't want to sleep with lots of women.

I did a post ALMOST exactly like this, if people want more, trail through my posts and look for "purpose and inner peace".

Alot of new guys here need to see the benefits in developing long term relationships.

I came here to answer a PM, and I'm posting again. This site is a vicious circle.

Again, if you actually read the posts in this thread, you discover that no one has any problem with guys sleeping with lots of women, it's just that many guys force themselves to conform to what they think is expected of them as aspiring PUAs even though that isn't what they want as an individual.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Did so Rye right from the start, you should know me better

I'm pointing out that if men didn't want lots of women, they wouldn't chase after it, if anyone is like that, they soon find out thats not what they want and they change.

Men enjoy sex, we also enjoy it with different and numerous partners, it often gives an extra edge of excitment, denying that is pointless.

Similarly, denying that you can be unbelievably happy in a monogomous relationship is also equally pointless.

It doesn't come down to "this is fake happy and this is true happy."

There's happiness, thats it, if you are not happy CHANGE.

Simple as. Purpose cannot be instruced, no one can really say, this lifestyle wont make you happy, it's all about individuals and thier circumstances and thier emotions.


People are just as likely to be trapped in loveless monogamy as in emotionless polyogamy.

I agree with the primary message, I'm just making sure the flipside can be heard.

Ok, I get what you're saying, but I have to say that I've worked with a lot of guys that were setting out to sleep with a ton of women because that's what they figured they had to do in order to fit into the community. I personally think that that's the whole point of this thread and that a lot of the guys objecting to it aren't understanding that. I know Sean thinks the stuff the community teaches is good skills for the most part, but some of the values are based upon what some of the people are interested in (sleeping with tons of women) and so guys coming into the community just seem to go along with those ideals even if they aren't really true to their own happiness.

It's not entirely uncommon, I mean they've been going along with what society has been telling them all their lives and now they've found a new society that is telling them the path to being good with girls, so they do whatever the new society tells them to do even if they don't truly feel it. I think that's what Sean was trying to say (I'm trying not to put words in his mouth here), but I know for a fact that that's how I felt and how a lot of students and peers I've met have felt. I told them that they didn't have to sleep with tons of women to become good with them and they were totally relieved because they were forcing themselves to approach and try to sleep with tons of women even though they didn't really want to, they just thought that was the only way cause that's what Mystery and everyone else teaches.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye