I don't have any qualms with learning ways to attract and interest women. However, as a psycholgist with familiarity with the mindset and intent of rapists - I find a lot of the technique fits the schema for a rapist (throw away your hooded/bearded murderer image - keep the winning-streak college football jock in mind).

I am NOT implying that anyone here rapes anyone intentionally, but that feelings can be misread, and self-confidence and pride can quickly transform into denial at being turned down, naturally. Does any PUA literature address this? I'm really interested.

Thanks for any replies. I hope I don't come off as attacking anyone or making accusations, I'm just interested.

I am going to have to disagree. The ideas and philosophy behind blasting past the LMR, is that women want to have sex, but they don't want it to be easy. Furthermore, they want to know that the man they are having it with is into them for more than sex, and should she want a relationship then he will be willing.

Never is it taught to keep pushing after a girl says 'stop' or 'no.' Never is it said to force yourself on her and restrain her attempts to resist. The strategies of going 2 steps forward, 1 step back, is to preserve comfort. The strategy of the freeze out, is to show non-neediness. This proves to her subconsciously that you are not some dog that is only interested in getting laid. It also makes her feel more comfortable and wants the attention back from you that she just lost.

Rape is just wrong, and personally I have never had sex with a woman where she regretted it after (even if it was a one night stand). Woman are just like men, sexual beings. The "PUA techniques" are just a formula to pass the subconscious tests a woman throws out before she gives herself up.

Edit: Oh, and the difference in LMR and resisting rape. They are the same until the man goes past the comfort zone of the woman. No formula or list of techniques can make a woman have sex with you. It can only increase your odds and make her more comfortable with that notion.

Listen PU is much more complicated than you seem to realize. Most likely you don't truly have a good grasp on what PU is and your judging it with extreme prejudice. PU is broken down into two components.

First is inner game. Many of the guys who seek to learn PU suffer from self-image and self-esteem problems. Inner game focuses on resolving those issues from a psychological stand point, thus making much mentally healthier men. And this is all scientific, not opinion, most of inner game teaching is based on psychology and some of it is even written by psychologists.

Second is outer game. And its not all pickup lines and techniques. A lot of outer game has to do with understanding how the female mind processes information and responds to stimuli. This is based on psychology, sociology, and anthropology.

Were not just a bunch of sex-addicts learning how to prey on weak minded women. We are men who have decided to take a portion of our lives and dedicate it to the understanding of the social dynamics between men and women in a dating context. There is nothing wrong with that! PU teaches men how to be confident and self fulfilled. PU teaches men to be selective and well-rounded. PU helps men understand women in a way normal men can't. If anything PUAs are the opposite of rapists. We don't try to force women to have sex with us. We learn how to show them how great we truly are as men, and then grant them the opportunity to sleep with us. Rejection is a major part of PU. All great PU Masters teach their student to learn to accept rejection and learn from it. I think this makes us much healthier than the average frustrated chump walking down the street who is filled with sexual frustration and low self-esteem.

P.S. LMR is completely different than rape. LMR is a natural response built into women from a repressive male-oriented society. Women are sexual beings, they want to have sex, but they feel compelled to say no because they fear being labeled a slut by society.
Dealing with LMR never involves more force. It usually involves much less physically contact and a little reverse psychology. How can you rape a women by stopping?

There is absolutely no connection between pickup and rape.
Read this again!

We do not trick people into falling in love with us, there is no way to do that. In the end everyone makes their own choices.

Almost anyone can get attracted to almost anyone else but the problem is that in order to connect you need to pass the maze of personality. What we do here is to give people the general maze-map of the most common mazes. And sometimes also teach people to understand how to turn.

LMR is not a way to force people into bed. It is a way to make the girl comfortable enough to let herself enjoy the moment.

We are the people least likely to rape anyone. The game is all about respecting the structure of the social interaction leading up to attraction. We understand what frightens the girls and we avoid that! I would say that we are the only ones behaving and treating girls with respect!
Compare being enjoyable and funny to getting girls drunk enough to have sex with their half conscious bodies. Repulsive!

Ezo

Wow, really well-written replies, thanks. You've mentioned a lot of great things about PUA - like making a relationship about social attraction and not physical/situational coercion, self-esteem problems, and dealing with failure. That helps me understand why most PUAs are delicate with LMR, I think.

However, I don't know if I'm convinced that all guys practicing PUA are non-predatory. With forums like "lay reports" and retelling of "multiple successes tonight," it sort of muddles the idea that all people here really respect or care about the women they are courting/having sex with.

Now, I had a question - whether it's mentioned in any PUA material about rape? I don't mean that it's PUA's responsibility, but that it's a male's responsibility. The modest statistic is that 10% of women are raped. I would think it's really important to address this on this type of venture, where PUA-practicers are having sex with sometimes dozens of different women. Thanks again, it sounds more positive having explained it like that.

I need you to clarify. Are you talking about PUAs being falsely accused of rape or are you talking about the potential for frustrated PUAs to commit rape?

P.S. Not everyone one writes lay reports. But in defense of those who do, it’s no different than bragging to a friend when you sleep with a hot girl.

The distinction that you are not making is that sex is going to occur with or without pickup. Guys are going to try and get laid whether or not they learn pickup, and they are still going to go out with the same mindset, just minus the skills. Men are by nature predatory when it comes to selecting a mate. This is not as inherently evil or malevolent as you’re making it seem.
Rapists are men with deep seeded sexual and psychological dysfunctions. Yes they are predatory, but that’s not what makes them rapists. They are rapists because they have impulse control problems. Everyman fantasizes about having sex with women they see on the street, but most of us have the impulse control not to act upon the desires of our id and only to act within the confines of morality and legality.

The teachings of PUArtistry reduce anger, frustration, and potential of violence (including rape) in men.

The purpose of the material and of the inner development, is to find one's ideal self. Mastery of this is being completely control of one's mental state, and to not let emotions get the better of them. Much of the violence and frustration seen in society, I feel can be traced back to an unfulfilled area of one's life. In this day and age that is generally going to be failure with women. I know so many people who would be much more happy/non-confrontational if they were to get laid more. There is also psychological evidence that shows that a healthy sex life creates a more peaceful persona.

So, the difference between a PUA and an AFC is that:
1. The PUA is in control of his mental state and does not let emotions run him.
2. The PUA has more success with women and therefore is less frustrated, and has less potential for violence.

The learning of game is the elegant use of psychological triggers to build true feelings of attraction from a female. From an outsider it may appear that this is a way to make women have sex with you, but nothing is ever forced. The basis of game is to make men seem so appealing, that the woman chases him. IMO, a true PUA is more likely to be raped than to rape.

_________________
There are no failures, only feedback.

What do you mean predatory?

Yes, we have Lay reports and we have the urges of a modern man and a caveman.
Let me define how I mean predatory: A person who is actively trying to get laid.
Yes, we are predatory. The ultimate goal is to get the girl!
So are 99% of all men, is that wrong? NO! This is the way of reproduction. This is how you spread your genes. The only difference is that we are more successful.

BUT!!!! There is a difference between being predatory and being a rapist! We respect the woman when she says no! Read this one more time, I can not stress this enough.

LMR is all about respecting the no!
When the woman says no we let her get what she is asking for.
A rapist do not accept a no and just keeps going.
If you have read some things about LMR you know that we use something called a freezeout. We say, ok, sure, a no is a no and then we start doing other non sexual things. This is where the woman have the choice. A no is not always a no but we have to treat it as a no. If she means no then she will be grateful for the takeaway and if she does not mean the no then she has to take action to show us that it is ok to keep going.
We do not! NOT! push her into anything!

Do you see the difference? If I would be a woman I would prefer this behaviour to the guys trying to convince me to have sex.
LMR gives the woman a chance to decide, the ball is in her court.

So yes, we actively try to get girls into bed BUT ONLY!!!! if she wants to. In the end, it is her decision!

Are we guilty of being predatory? No more than anyone else. We just know how to behave.

Oh, I forgot. All PUAs have different goals in their game. Some just wants to find a girlfriend to love. Some wants to have many girls a night some wants to have multiple relationships. It all comes down to who you are. Having the skillset of the PUA does not change that.

And the LRs are a way to also understand what works and not. What women wants...

Yes, some PUAs are predatory. Yes, I've seen literature in PUA that talks about rape... particularly that of "Dimitri the Lover" who actually talks about the benefits of adopting the mindset of a sexual predator.

The seduction community is really fucking diverse in how people think and practice this art form, and personally I must say that no PUA of sound mind would promote rape or even promote Dimitri the Lover. He's the fool of Youtube-fame who left those disgustingly egotistically disillusioned voice messages on that woman's phone, by the way.

Simply put, all forms of this art teach how to have sex with women who want to have sex, and how to transform yourself into that sexworthy man. LMR is a form of anxiety. Rape is a far more serious issue than anxiety.

If anything PUA should prevent rapes. We teach guys to be more socially aware and to embrace rejection as something to get used to. "Every rejection is another brick in my palace." Someone who doesn't know pickup has a higher chance of misreading an IOD as an IOI than someone who does.

Also, Lay Reports aren't about bragging. Well, they shouldn't be anyway. They are about letting others learn this art through real life examples.
I have something very specific to say to that.

Pickup isn't some forbidden art form that's available only to a chosen few. Anyone with access to the internet can learn it.

Guns aren't just available to law enforcement. Anyone can fucking buy a gun regardless of their intent. In a perfect world, people would buy guns solely to protect themselves in case some maniac breaks into their house at night and tries to kill them. However, some people buy guns to kill and steal and rape and commit suicide.

Some people learn pickup to traumatize women and to use and abuse them and break their hearts. You can't stop that.

It's never the technology to blame. Do we blame the actual gun when gun control laws fail to protect citizens?

Can we blame the pickup arts when an innocent woman gets raped by a malicious predator?

It's debatable, but in my opinion we should blame the murderer and the rapist, not the technology involved.

Well said Chief.

I would like to adress the guy who started this thread. Even though this thread has strong feelings and strong opinions it is a welcome thread.

I speak for myself and I hope for the rest of us as well.
Do not be afraid to insult us and do not be afraid or take the replies as aggressive. It is also very important for us to be understood and it is important that you understand what we are trying to tell you.

Plus, the thread is great for showing the potential rapists that may be (may be!) reading it that the PUA society do not accept this kind of behaviour.

Ezo

I think this is actually a pretty important discussion topic. I'm moving it to the PUA Lounge.

Good!

There is a great misconception about PUA and sexual harrassment out there.
People think that we:
1. Do not respect women
2. Do not respect a no
3. Are abusive
4. Are manipulative
5. Just want to get girls into bed

All of the above are as common in our community as in any other group of human society.

We have dedicated much time to learn how to talk to girls without freaking them out! We have learned to behave! We have learned to NOT be too forward! We have learned to let the woman lead the interaction to chase us! If they are attracted to men who treat them like equals then whats the problem? The only thing we do is to refuse to acknowledge that a woman has power over us just because she is a woman.

If this is abusive or disrespectful or harassive behaviour then by all means call me a bastard!

No, PUAs are the ones who are going to behave and not take advantage of women. Why? Because we dont have to!

lmr is only hesitating due to instinct. resisting rape is when yu force something and ignore the stop signals. its worrying you ask that mate. just in case - stop if she says stop. im messin.
theres some pretty funny jokes that relate to this -
its only rape if they wake up
its not rape if you say surprise - its just unplanned sex - improvised
V1V

bump
bonita get ur ass on this thread