I'd like to get some general opinions on something relating to the ethics of pick-up; I'm not saying I'm right nor am I trying to tell you guys you're wrong and I respect that everyone does what they're satisfied with but I'd like to hear some opinions on this one.

Do you guys ever feel wrong or inferior about having to lie to women to get laid?

Playing all those games; negging, DHVing, indirectly showing value just to get a woman to love the actor you've become and not the real you. It is one thing to lie and manipulate. Every emotional experience in life is manipulation but to have to put on a show your whole relationship and pretend to be someone you're not just to keep a woman interested. Trying to hide yourself with a slew of techniques and calculated actions seems to present a person who under their "PUA" shell is weak, insecure and ashamed of their natural personality enough to chose to mask it with another personality.

If girls are attracted to a dominant, secure, protective and confident alpha male are PUAs not confident enough that they could turn their real personalities into this type of man? Are PUAs not confident enough to be their alpha self and have a girl respect you for being honest with her and triggering her attraction switches naturally? Do you guys really need to mask themselves to appear attractive?

Don't get me wrong I used to be heavy into Mystery Method but don't PUAs ever get tired of coming back to a fourm to ask other men how they should behave or deal with situations - that just seems like a signal of insecurty which screams, "I'm not confident in myself I need someone else to advise me on how to behave so I can appease this girl and keep her happy." Are you any better than the AFCs when you're trying to calculate everything you do just to appease these girls. Why are you guys all convinced that you need a complex method to set off such simple attraction triggers?

Again these are not so much attacks so much as they are my own personal realizations and conclusions I've reached and I DO keep an open mind to what others have to say; I never set my views in stone but I wanted to get some other input on this.

These questions have resulted from my radical shift in views over the past two years since my departure from the Mystery Method dominated community and my move back to natural game as well as the numerous advances I have made in natural attraction and it's effectivness.

- Chris

You have a point, while still missing the point.

It is not right to lie. I strongly dislike lying and cheating and all of that jazz. But as I've experienced it, this isn't about lying to the girls. It is about changing yourself. AFCs will be pretending at first, until they have the confidence in them. A PUA is an Alpha male. A PUA is not an AFC in disguise. Picking up girls is hard if you have no confidence and no outer game. This whole science exists to change the mentality of the poor frustrated chumps.

Is it wrong to use the same routines over and over again? Well, maybe. If your bike has a flat tyre, you'd normally revert to a method of solving the issue that you know will work. You use a pump. The same theory can be used for picking up girls. If your problem is that you need something to talk about, something to catch the women's interest, you use openers and routines. I see it pretty much as the same thing.

In DHV and such things, I would not lie. never. I would point out the goods stuff and not be as open with the bad parts. It's not lying, it is being you. Do you ever see anyone telling you his or her bad habits first of all? I guess not.

This who PUA Science is about encouraging those who lack confidence, and give a few pointers as to what girls like so the guys know what to do to make themselves seem interesting. When the AFCs pretend to be confident, they will actually become confident. I've done it, and felt it. I'm the geek who told myself to be brave and look confident, which made me brave and confident for real.

Just my opinion on the matter.

~ Nag

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--=:[ I will not yield to evil. Unless she's cute. ]:=--

I strongly agree. I don't think Mystery Method is really anything better than a bunch of cokananny media hyped BULLSHIT! and GUYS it DOESN'T WORK!!! Especially the openers and the little routines. I think if you came up with your own situational routine you'd proabably get more responses...but then again since it's situational it's more natural. The ideas in the M3 model are useful when applied to interactions with women, but they're JUST ideas. More less if you can't interract naturally with a woman you don't have to worry about inner game concepts. Attraction is the biggest factor in a woman saying yes or no. AND MOST WOMEN are not physical. But an aggressive approach 99.9% of the time almost never works. You have to put her on an even keil with you and not act like she's the only girl in the world...and that you could drop her at any moment. Women easily tap into this attitude.

You've all made good points and as a woman I agree. There's a huge difference between confidence and pretending to be something you're not, and usually a woman sees through that eventually.

If you aren't necessarily the most confident guy in the room, at least try FEELING confident. That is, confident in who you are. Pretending to be confident and someone you aren't is a facade you won't be able to maintain forever.

Not only that, but the more you pretend to be someone you're not and still get rejected, it forces you to try that much harder to restore a little more of the real confidence you just lost.

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"And this too shall pass"

Props to you c_n12,

this thread is really good for discussion of a very important topic and to allow people to realise why they got into the game. Here's my fifty cents.

The reason why I come to this forum and why I've half gotten into all of this is for one reason and one reason only - to open doors to new experiences, to allow me to feel more confident in myself. Okay..more than one reason then. And at first yes I knew that I'd have to rely on canned openers followed by a fake DHV, followed by etc, but although I'm defnitiely no PUA just knowing that I've now been with women I've managed to break down those stupid ass mental boundaries put in place to most men that these women and these social expriences are unattainable. And as my confidence increased I was able to shed these pieces of armour that shielded my own full personality, realising exactly what Style and others preach to think - this is me, with my own rich personality and beliefs and if you don't like it then that's a shame.

So what I'm trying to say is that PUA has been a good way for me to understand the underlying map of good male-female interaction, it has given me a good vessel in which to 'infiltrate' this group of 'unattainable' people and now have the knowledge that there is no such thing as unattainable in this context.
Thanks for the post. Helped put some of these thoughts into the front of my mind again. Best of luck. Hope you find what you're looking for

Peace,

Blues skies