Hey again every one, lovely to be greeted by so many welcomes today! Hello Killians, fellow female Really interested to hear your views on some of the "controversial" posts in the forum.

It is REALLY great to hear that you guys feel that some of the PUA ideas help you to feel confident enough to approach women, and feel positive about it. I wanna remind all the guys here that some of us women do understand this too, because WE go through some of the same emotions in the same situation. There are loads of women now who feel that it is a positive thing to approach a guy. I have done so a few times, because I believe that I should take every opportunity I have to find the guy who is right for me. It is always a bit scary, hehe! But I have found that guys always respond in a friendly way and have a nice conversation with me. Of course, I have been "rejected" a fair few times! But I decided that if I could get my self respect to survive it then it would be character building. I think that meeting a guy is a chance to make a friend, meet a boyfriend, or have a really interesting conversation. Any approach results in one of those things so I am never disappointed.

I think, for many people, fear of rejection is so crippling that they are terrified to approach. My way of getting around this was to learn not to take rejection on a personal level. I always think there are four very good and sensible reasons why a man might turn me down

1) He has a partner already or is gay.
2) He doesn't know much about me so doesn't appreciate the full extent of my fabulous qualities
3) He doesn't find me physically attractive.
4) He has picked up on something about my personality that would clash with his e.g. opposing political views or life values, or lack of interests in common.

I think these reasons can apply to any one, and not one should be viewed as a personal criticism. Statisically speaking, we are all likely to encounter loads of "mis-matches" before we approach some one who has all the unique qualities we are suited to. I think it can be particularly tough if you feel you have been "rejected" because the person did not find you physically attractive. But even then, it's not really an insult when you think about it. I always think, I have met plenty of guys who think I'm really cute. If one guy doesn't agree, it doesn't mean I'm not attractive; it means I'm not his type.

The other way I think about it is that people are like individual pieces in a jigsaw puzzle. Many of us are going around searching for a special person who will fit our own piece of jigsaw exactly. When we approach a person we are trying to find out if they have a set of physical and personality attributes that fit together well with our own. Again, statisically speaking, we are most likely gonna have to try a fair few jigsaw pieces before we find one that fits us uniquely. I find when I view approaching men this way, it makes it seem fun and rewarding, and I don't take any rejection as a personal criticism. Do any of you guys think about dating in this way? How do you feel about a "rejection"? Does fear of rejection ever put you off approaching a girl?

I think its great that you are being so brave Musterion Like I said, some girls know FROM EXPERIENCE that it takes guts to approach someone! And whatever the outcome of the approach, a nice girl will respect you for being so courageous, and feel happy that you made a friendly connection with her, no matter how brief. My advice from a female point of view would be keep practicing, and NEVER feel fazed by a rejection. Every experience is valuable practice for when you meet the right girl ^_^ Also, I think it's good to be clear about exactly what you are looking for. If you are looking for lots of sex with lots of girls then, I hate to say it, but probably some of the manipulative PUA techniques will work best. But if you are looking for a girlfriend and a happy relationship then I think you should avoid anything manipulative like the plague. She will quickly smell a rat, and decide it is you!

I can't believe how many times I have read "girls don't want nice guys" on here. It's true there are loads of girls who just want a rich guy out there, and they don't care what kind of guy he is. But I believe most girls DO want a nice guy, and I am one of them. Don't make the mistake of thinking that if women aren't flocking to you it means women aren't attracted to nice guys. Some flashy, dominant guys may seem to attract loads of women, but women with any sense know that these guys have a poisonous side to their personality and will not consider them as longterm partners. It is really good if you can use the PUA techniques to get confident to approach girls more, because then you will meet more like-minded girls, and we will all have more chance to find our matching jigsaw piece

I'm really interested to hear what you all think of this female take on things. For example, otatop i can see what you mean about women picking up on a lack of self-confidence. But on the other hand, I think many women would find VERY confident men a bit intimidating. I think its more that warmth, openess and a positive outlook are the big attractors for many women. What do you think?

Hey Phaedra Interesting to hear your reasons for joining I kinda feel the same so far... curious, but sceptical of some of the ideas, and intrigued by others. I think you are right about the tv programme; it was probably deliberately edited to make people feel as uncomfortable as possible. Really interested to hear what you and the other female posters here think of the idea "girls don't want nice guys". Do you think it's true? If not, why do so many guys think that?

I'll remind you again that the end goal for a PUA is not manipulation, whether he wants one night stands or committed relationships. If a guy approaches this art with mindset of "I'm sticking my hand in the jar and stealing a cookie. I hope I don't get caught," he will find his sense of humanity slowly being chipped away at. His success rates will fall, and he will not achieve self actualization, one of the greatest benefits these arts can offer.

Instead, a PUA must always consider his humanity and, I believe, he must value compassion. A PUA recognizes that women want sex, too. Everyone wants to feel good, have fun, maybe even fall in "love," regardless of gender. A PUA delivers these gifts to both himself and women. He recognizes that women are not actually opponents in this game, but rather they are teammates. The trick to learn here is just learning how to most effectively work together and communicate with her to win "the game" together.
Your argument is just a consequence of miscommunication. To a woman, a "nice guy" is a man with attractive qualities who is considerate of others. To a man, a "nice guy" is a self-sacrificing doormat who doesn't respect himself. Our goal here isn't to mold men into nice guys. We aim to become "good guys." There's a difference.

So don't go around trying to convince guys that being a "nice guy" is attractive. That's just going to cause more confusion.
You're absolutely right, and even a pickup guru named Vin DiCarlo will concur with you. He promotes developing a trait that he likes to call "warm dominance." However, having these excellent qualities while lacking confidence only pigeonholes a man into the "friend zone." It just becomes warmth without the dominance. Then the woman can't feel so much like a woman in his presence. She'll just feel like he's just another girlfriend with a penis.

the game will never die. it will just be reformatted. eventually maybe everyone will know the techniques.. girls will change there techniques and that game will continue

girl have "techniques" and psychological things they pull on guys all the time.. whether it be subconscious or planned.. we have just learned to notice them..

personally i believe this is real.. you stated that something a long the lines of "dont you want something real?"..

well there is a lot of canned stuff (as in: scripted type lines) but its not like we each dont have our own personalities. after all the canned stuff theres real stuff.. speaking for myself everything i say to a girl is real i dont make stuff up.. (as in my stories)

i mean i am still the same guy i was years ago but with a whole new and more positive outlook on life.. is that not real? i am just helping myself to something better.

I think I know the documentary your referring to, (Its a british documentary, am I not mistaken?). Even as a brand spanking newbie to this world (Hi all, by the way) there were several parts of it I took exception to.

-The portrayal of the Rohypnal joke. Yeah, fine, it wasn't a very classy joke, and it wasn't funny, but it was no worse than many many jokes I hear from mates and workmates alike every day. It was clearly cut out of a much larger conversation, with the goal to make it seem as if PUAs are merely a step below rapists. The scene was inserted in a way that didn't fit with the flow of the documentary, which to me as a filmmaker says that it wasn't in the original cut and channel 4 demanded something that made the documentary seem more sensationalist and, thusly, better TV.

-The filmmaker actually came out and said that he was intending to make a 'funny film about geeks trying to get girls'. The entire culture of lets-mock-the-geeks is what spurs a large percentage of teenage and young adult male suicides. Its morally questionable at best to make a film with the active intention to further this view. (The guy who made is also is responsible for a line of channel 4 freakshow documentaries which are, basically, examples of 'lets all stare at the midget' and 'lets all stare at the old guy')

-In his closing moments, the filmmaker actually pretty much explains the arguments made above, that the game is about giving guys who otherwise lack that certain social skillset the framework to develop it, before randomly saying that he wouldn't want them going out with his sister. Why? You've just told me that PUAs are decent guys.

Basically, I suspect channel 4 balked at a story that showed PUAs in a positive light, and the filmmaker wussed out.