I just hate how this makes naturals sound superior to PUAs, when in actuality, PUAs have the advantage.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

So Fiction, let me see if I am understanding you correctly. What you are trying to say is that there really is no mimicking; that what new PUA's are doing are using (hypothetically) text books and resources to learn. Once they have learned themselves, the inner core will follow?

But you don't like the pyramid analogy because it gives no motivation behind the urge to learn the traits?

I think you have to take into account that the person is already motivated enough and interested enough to take himself, wipe the slate clean, and start over. Maybe I am just a special case, but after realizing what I wanted, I looked at myself and blanked everything out. THEN, I was left with certain genetic characteristics (my humor, my intelligence, my passion for things) - since these were natural aspects of me. But from those, I built upward.

I dunno, explain further and a little more simpleton. I like where you were going, but I got lost along the way.

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[color=red:7c51ae7520]email is a better option: thelockestar@gmail.com[/color:7c51ae7520][/size:7c51ae7520]

Yeah, sorry--it's that sort of stream of consciousness thing and I got caught up in the details.
Well, I think a good PUA ought to realize that one cannot be successful in it without a strong inner game.

I like using the sports analogy. A lot of people will not lift weights/exercise on their own. However, when placed in the context of a sport, say--baseball--it becomes clear that practicing the strategy and learning the skills will only take you so far. It should become quickly evident that weightlifting, cardiovascular work, etc. will be necessary and relevant for further advancement. In fact, a person will probably be excited to do the weightlifting because he recognizes its payoff.
I think the foundational thing isn't wrong so much as not the whole picture--it leaves out the whole genesis of the project. People only become focused on systematizing their development when they discover a particular area that they DESIRE to develop.

You mentioned that you "looked at myself and blanked everything out." But first you said that you said that this came only after "realizing what I wanted". How did you come to this realization? Presumably there was something in your life that triggered it, and being that you are on a pickup forum, that something was probably, at least in part, a lack of success with women.

Once this desire was established, you devoted your energies to improving in this area. Storytelling, conversational banter, making good first impressions...these are all tools that the PUA must master to become successful. But all of these translate into more generalizable processes that are important for everyday life.

Do you remember the line in Fight Club where Ed Norton talks about "Fight Club was the reason you cut your hair and trimmed your nails"? Some people might look at this as a bad thing, but I see it as a motivational strategy. I am--to be quite honest--a slob. Yet someone made a thread about keeping your room clean because who knows when a woman might come by, or someone in your social network could see it. Now I keep my room good and clean. It's not even conscious anymore, but the starting point, the motivational factor...the thing that gave this boring and meaningless task RELEVANCE was to be successful with women. And ultimately it is true. People frequently talk about knowing your shit in class will make you appeal more to women and provide dominance in class. If this will get people to study hard in class, great!

To sum up, when I talked about the motivational and pedagogical aspects, the motivational issues was the point that gets you engaged--what hooks you into doing a task or adopting a mindset. The pedagogical aspect was the pyramidal concept--once you determine what it is you want, you DO start building a foundation--but it is focused on the particular task at hand. And occasionally you might realize that the foundation is deeper and wider than you initially thought, so you get back to the basics.

When you master the individual tasks, often we are introduced to things that we truly love. George Carlin originally wanted you use comedy as a stepping stone into acting, but as far as I am aware, the closest he ever got to landing a major role was "Mr. Conductor" on Shining Time Station (that was the kids show with the trains).


The foreseeable objection to this view would be that things you love ought to be fostered by an intrinsic motivation, and that a true artist falls in love with something the first time he does it. I just don't think this makes sense. Frequently, to get the effects of something you need to stick with it for awhile. A superficial introduction is rarely enough.


Sigh....once again, I've rambled. Maybe if I ramble enough my thoughts will gradually become clearer. Keep challenging it though--these have been in the ol' noodle for awhile, and I needed the impetus to get them down in writing.[/quote]

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

I was that genius in the class. I never studied and I never did any homework, but I managed to get high B's or low A's based upon test scores and Labs, or whatever was required. I also skipped a lot of school and hung out with my friends instead. Sure, I got better grades than 90% of the other people, but those people that really applied themselves were able to beat me and they benifited in the end in many ways.

Such is it with pickup and social skills as well. Some people have moderate abilities naturally and some have great abilities naturally, but if you apply yourself and truly want to succeed, like those other kids did; then like them, you will have far greater success than the guys that just take their skill for granted and don't try to be any better than what they naturally are.

Those other people are content with their level of success, but you realise you aren't achieving what you desire and so you improve yourself to be better than those people, whether you had some natural talent to begin with or not, you can train to become greater. I'd rather compare us to rabbits that saw a wolf on the prowl taking down a deer and decided, "Fuck it, I want to eat some deer too," and got laser cannons and sniper rifles. I think I'd rather take on a wolf, than a rabbit that knows how to use a laser cannon....

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

A natural doesn't have the self confidence and personal awareness that a PUA does. Sure, he is good with girls naturally, but he doesn't know how or why, so if a girl that he really likes crushes him, he doesn't recover easily.

A PUA has got boatloads of confidence and understands why he is good, what his flaws are and learns from them, instead of being hurt when he runs into failure, he grows from it and becomes stronger.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

are we growing, or are we mimicking?


Fiction...again, i am not sure where you are headed. I like what you are saying, but I personally am not comprehending the relevance of your post to PUAs sometimes taking the wrong path of boosted egos and faked cores instead of properly becoming strong framed and real to themselves/others.


Hobbit, I like how you phrased it. Studying material, learning things, and applying things is the METHOD of reaching a proper core and skillset. Just because we borrow things naturals have, doesn't make us any less real. Just gives us a chance to form ourselves into it.


p.s. Fiction - teach me Mandarin...i've been wanting to learn for so long, but don't find myself around the proper influences to motivate me to do so! Self will....a hard thing to come by when you've got a lot going on.

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[color=red:7c51ae7520]email is a better option: thelockestar@gmail.com[/color:7c51ae7520][/size:7c51ae7520]

Well, I guess I am generally saying that you ought to address the superficial PUA skills first, because that is what will get someone hooked. But I think that a PUA developing a fake core is the result of a lack of experience and/or proper instruction. With proper guidance it becomes obvious that routines are only one facet of the entire game, and that "inner game" is a pivotal and integral part of any successful PUA. To refer back to the sports analogy--you learn the fun moves first. But eventually you will realize and the coach ought to show you--being great at a sport is all about the basics--in boxing, it is a good stance, good footwork, keeping your hands up, and the four basic offensive strikes. Boxing and PUA are the same--it isn't about learning the next flashy move...it's about always improving on the basics, and the basics for PUA is inner game.

And I think the analogy of mimicry that Doc was using is just wrong--the inborn talent that a natural have will never be had by a non-natural, just like a lesser athlete can never hope for the same muscle fiber type ratio, VO2 Max, etc., but can work to adapt as well as possible.[/quote]

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

Excellent post Doc, but i was hopeing to see some boobies

All kidding aside i agree, for me im trying to keep everyhting in perspective by making the whole thing about me being a better person.

_________________
-Ka-
"Be the same, only better."

They definitely deserve credit and they know what they do, just the vast majority of them couldn't explain it when asked. I know my uncle who was an amazing natural and tried to take me out to clubs and get me to pick girls up couldn't explain how to do it to me at all.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

sometimes it just feels better to work ("earn") for something you didn't have; but now can and do.

_________________
[color=red:7c51ae7520]email is a better option: thelockestar@gmail.com[/color:7c51ae7520][/size:7c51ae7520]

Ok ... Alot of posts in this post since it got revived. I'm going to try to address a few key issues here, because I think this topic is close... however without further clarification and conversation I can't expect you all to understand what I'm getting at.

Hobbits post was excellent from a naturals perspective IMO. In fact I remember when I first came across the community, showing the fastseduction site to my roommate, and laughing about how they had names for "what you do" when you talk to women... You see at one time I didn't realize that every guy didn't just do all these things. Also it's like he said to, I could care less if I "lose" a set... also as those of you who have met me know, I don't open alot... why? I don't care to that much, getting an attractive woman is nothing new, I've always been able to.


Lol, at Lockes Homeschooled kid analogy... that very environment you descirbed right there produced me. lol I'd at least like to think of myself as slightly more socially competent then the fellow in your illustration, even though I didn't read anything on PU until I read MM about a week before I started the MM workshops.


Rye Lee, I have to disagree with being a PUA being superior.

Name a couple of the greatest PUA's of all time, Say Style and Mystery... and compare thier lifes with those of any of 100s of naturals. Presidents, CEO's, Prime Ministers... Ghandi, JFK, Edison, Jordan, Pitt...

If you disagree with my assesment, and believe that being a PUA is superior then by all means continue as planned.

If not then lets delve deeper into the naturalization of sucess.

I think the big problem with PUA is it gets used as a crutch, people improve one aspect of your life, and don't want to go to far without 'mastering' the early steps... I see it as cop out... I see it as potential being squandered because of people being to much of pussies to apply everything the do in PU to thier ENTIRE life. Thats what I mean by naturalization.

The thing I'm trying to get at, is that PUAs consciously understand what goes on during interactions, whereas the vast majority of naturals don't. This makes blowing naturals out of sets easy, because they are just following their instincts and when I go into a set, I am able to out-manuever them, as they are merely on auto-pilot.

Also, because naturals are operating on a subconscious and emotional level, whereas PUAs train themselves to take control of their emotions, we are able to get over things like a girl breaking up with us, easier than a natural. Now, remember this is a generalization and that there are naturals that have no problem just moving on without that problem, but all PUAs should be able to move on without that problem if they are truly embracing what it means to be a PUA.

I don't understand why you are saying that being a PUA is just about women and being a natural is all about the lifestyle, because I think that most PUAs have realised that just being good at picking a girl up doesn't mean anything without the rest of the solid lifestyle. This is why there is such a huge focus on inner game and having a good foundation, not just knowing some lines and routines.

I can see how these concepts might apply to previous generations of PUAs, but these days, there is a tremendous push towards natural game and becoming just a great person, that is able to have good conversations, not canned materials and fake personas. If you dissagree, then maybe you need a course from Charisma Concept.

_________________
"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Heh, I think there is a bit of a selection bias. Compare PUAs sample (X), with naturals sample (random group selection of famous and highly successful people). Being a natural here is equated to being famous and successful, which begs the question.
Ignoring your critics doesn't strike me as the best discussion technique.

_________________
Lo' there do I see My Father.
Lo' there do I see the line of My People, back to the beginning.
Lo' they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them.
in the Halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.

I'm saying that PUA and naturals are different in life overall because it's true. There simply aren't that many PUA's in who exist that are more then marginally sucessfull outside of picking up women.

And dude don't self promote at me... It comes across both slightly confrontational and improffesional.

See it's this very thing that has been bugging me so much lately about alot of PUAs... you have some marginal sucess with something easy (women) and suddenly claim to be at this higher then the rest of the world level. You'll understand why most naturals are completely unimpressed.

Now maybe I'm holding the standard of sucess to high... everyone defines it differently. I just see the community in general as horribly underachieving for thier potential... push the fucking envelope.

It's about passion, I rather recently was able to tap back into that passion I'd had before, Im not going to go into a big story but pretty much I had a 12-18 month rut for life. I now remember, I remember how to truly achieve and it has everything to do with passion.

I just see so little passion in the community lately... real passion at least, the kind of passion that means something.

No thats equating any part of the top couple percent of the population of naturals to the top .0001% of PUAs...If anything giving the PUA sample a better representation.

This is not intended to be a discussion for which is better... Thats silly, the community was created to emulate naturals...

This is about the difference between being good and being great... between being in the top 50% and the top 1%...

I don't care if your happy with being good, or even with being average... knock yourself out, personally it burns me to be good... it burns like a white hot fire in my stomache... anyone can be good, being good is worthless to me.

The good are lead by the great... Are you guys really satisfied? Do you really not feel that burning desire for greatness?