Unfortunately i don't have enough posts to post this in the PUA lounge! So sorry if this is in the wrong place.

Now this is going to be my personal opinion, obviously open to criticism but i just had an epiphany today when reading up about inner game and philosophy on why people get into game, specifically about the friend zone and reasons i learned game. This is the thread i have to say is a MUST read, and what lead me to this conclusion: worthwhile-threads-vt20776.html and most specifically the article: -the-game-is-a-lie-vt31425.html

So why do people try and get out of the friend is the first question to ask? Two main reasons i can think of, one is a massive sexual desire for your friend, and you really want to have a hot night of passion and get it out of your system. This is fairly easy to see why its flawed, there are plently of hot women out there and your being a giant dickwod quite frankly to one of your best friends by just using them.

So lets talk about the second reason, which until TODAY i held to. This is that you have very strong feelings for her, or perhaps your even in love with her, she is all you think about, and it PAINS you to have to hold back how you feel around her, this sound like you? Well thinking about yourself for a minute, this pretty much exclusively means you are looking for a long term relationship from her, or even settle down, after all you've probably known this girl for over a year and so you probably know her inside out right? So whats the current situation? Well basically sit back and look at where you are. This girl knows you very well, inside out and yet she is STILL not interested in you. What does this tell you? EVERYTHING, it tells you everything you need to know. She obviously isn't interested in the "real" you, as any real friends knows you for who you really are, so basically she knows you for who you are and yet doesn't want to be more than friends, so why are you even holding out any hope? She's seen all you've got to offer and either doesn't like what she sees or is too stupid to realize what she is missing or what she really wants, which should lead you to question whether you really want this girl. But there is some hope. There is a second slight variation of the situation. And that is that there is some sexual tension between the two of you, and you are an insecure guy who hasn't shown her your best side yet, or fate hasn't run its course yet.

Now lets examine exactly what happens when you nuke both these situations with a great pua game and how thats going to help you, or in-fact not all all and just mess you up. The first situation, where she's not interested in you. If you hit her with the game in this you could end up in a VERY messy situation. You could either ruin the relationship as you fail to game her properly, either because your probably new to PUA if your trying to get out of the friend zone, or because its just fucking hard to DE-friendzone a girl. But say you pull it off, say shes dieing to rip your pants off and ride you like a knight on horseback charging into enemy lines during a fierce battle. Lets just say you achieve this, what you have actually done is demeaned what a relationship with a man and a women is about, basically your settling for the analysis that a relationship = friendship + physical attraction, and i sincerely don't have to explain why that is not true. So if you do sleep with her when you want more, either you will REALLY upset her as she will be really confused because she know that your friendship is too deep to make this a casual thing, yet she doesn't want a LTR with you. Or even if you do date properly, instead it gets even messier when you realize that your relationship is based upon a failed formula, ie friendship + physical attraction = relationship, so basically you'd be putting your friendship through an unnecessary relationship that is doomed to fail at some point.

THERE IS A SAVING GRACE! Ok maybe its ok to apply some aspects of game if your in the situation where a) you want something long term and b) you have room for self improvement and there is some sexual tension between the two of you/ there is a possibility she will fall in love. Thing is, if its love we are talking about, chances are she is going to fall in love with you without any game if its meant to be, and no amount of "game" is going to make her feel THAT way about you. What you can do is though is sort your life out, take up hobbies, become more mature and conformable in your own skin, understand what you REALLY want from an amazing women and what you want in life. Some PUA's call this inner game, i think it runs deeper than that. She MAY be in the situation where she is waiting for this version of you, the BEST you, to come out, before she will embrace and tell you her true feelings. But i ask you to take a hard long look at yourself, and be brutally honest about which of these situations you are really in, and if your not in the last situation, i ask that you move on and improve your life/inner game anyways, as this is the most important part of PUA imho, and is the only part of PUA that will actually make a genuine improvement to your life.

Abyys - p.s. i might edit this to make it better written in the future, i apologize if it seems a bit rushed

well you cant approach every girl by the book because every person is different and reacts differently. I think the aim of PUA is to get the skill not the girl.. and to improve your life, your own confidence and satisfaction of yourself

PUA is about bringing out, cultivating and showing off your best self. This is what gets you the money, women, status, and fulfillment many guys crave out of life. While PUA is focused more on getting women, it is still about getting to this stage where you are your best self and allowing that to bring you all the success you desire.

That being said most guys end up in the friend zone because they were not their best selves. Therefore these girls who friend zoned them had ample reason to. The best way I can describe this is by saying that the girl saw the guy in a bad light (his less than best self) instead of a good light (his best self). To try and make this a little more clear how about I use the good old glass is half full/half empty analogy. Half empty = negative light = what a girl sees a guy in when she friend zoned him= possibly had potential (even if it was only a little) at some point but then lost it vs half full = positive light = girl sees that guy has potential and lives up to it.

The main reason the first step that almost everyone agrees upon for getting out of the friend zone is to get away from the girl that friend zoned you.

Guess what the second step is. Its to go out and and keep talking to other women so you can get better and develop your best self.

Third step? Show off your best self when you see her again and do it in the best light possible ie invite her to a party where you know everyone ie have the highest value or other similar things.

The one thing I cant stand about your post is that you said not to even try. I mean come on what is that? Why not try? What do you care if she rejects your best self or not? What did you lose? A friend? You didn't want her as a friend, you wanted her as an LTR or naked in your bedroom on her knees. Yes it may hurt to lose her as a friend, but it would make you miserable to keep her as a friend and be a constant reminder of what you cant have and failed to achieve.

Furthermore if she knows you as well as you say, then its pretty likely she knows you want her and is stringing you along cause you never gave her the shot to reject you is equally cruel and not something a friend would do.

To sum it up: Try to get out of the friend zone but dont make it a priority in life. Go out and cultivate your best self and let whatever happens happen. If she drops you so what drop her and care about the ppl in your life that really matter

Agree. I don't even believe in the friend zone. I believe it exists, but I also believe its possible to be friends with girls, without being in the FZ.

Why not? I've done this with plenty of girls that I was friendzoned with before I was confident. I still talk to all those girls too and we're still friends. Just because you can't handle the awkwardness of it or you're incapable of making what you want clear doesn't mean others can't.

Why doesn't a relationship = friendship + physical attraction?

The problem is when people talk about the friendzone, or at least in my case, was that you meant not JUST a friend but the fact you orbited her.

A casual friend isn't hard to turn into relationship/hit on her (If she turns you down, if you dont make a big deal of it, no one else will) BUT you end up hanging out with her everyday, having deep conversations and just being a flat out pussy. This isn't a guy-to-girl friendship, its a girl-to-girl friendship.

This is the main problem i think most guys in the community mean when they say "ive been friendzoned and i want to get out!" otherwise you're just like "oh cool i made a friend, one more person to hang out with". Obviously this is a generalisation and exceptions are aplenty.

In my case, i just didn't know how to have a proper female friend without developing feelings or show my intent from the start but you learn these things.

p.s. Scarcity is a major thing too

_________________
"You don't want girls to think you suck dick at fucking pussy"
-Seth (Superbad)

Good post. There is a LOT of truth in the "relationship does not equal friendship + physical attraction". The girls that are hardest to game for me have always been and will always be the ones where we have the friend vibe regardless of the number of innuendos, hookups, and flirty "on (insert night) we're going to go crazy with each other" conversations.