ARE ROUTINES CRUTCHES??



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 Post subject: ARE ROUTINES CRUTCHES??
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:48 pm 
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Many guys in the seduction community use verbatim routines that they read online. In fact, this stuff has gone so mainstream now that I hear their banter in bars and clubs when I go out.

Some of these routines have become the new pickup lines.

It’s like if I see a guy with painted black nails and a goofy hat walk towards me or my female friends, I already know what’s coming out of his mouth before he even opens it.

Sometimes, these routines help guys who have absolutely nothing to say, to actually say something. It gives them an excuse to talk to women and that’s a good step in the right direction. Anytime you make an attempt to actually talk to a live woman, it’s a positive step.

But are these routines crutches?

I’d add that routines are absolutely crutches. Let’s be clear, by routines, I am talking about the traditional memorized canned scripts read online and regurgitate. To devote so much on conversational threads is to focus way too much on text, and this process isn’t all that much about text.

I think there is a natural path of progression for most community guys who start out with the opinion opener and routine stacks. (There will always exist a few exceptions such as guys lwho always want to further break things into more algorithms.) However, most other guys move on.

There is a paradigm shift that takes place. This paradigm shift hits you like a bolt of lightening and it occurs in that moment when you suddenly realize that you can almost say anything. As a buddy of mine once said, you can say the most retarded shit and get away with it. It’s because the process has to due with subtext and what you convey.

Naturally, most of us will revert to our personalities and stories from our lives. That is only normal, but along the way we discover that we can make conversations with the mundane, “Hello, how are you?? and still create attraction.

This is what completely eludes many people including some dating teachers.

Why does this forbidden conversational piece work?

How can one person say something so simple along the lines of “How are you?” and spark attraction while another person fails miserably by using the same line?

It’s because we can still exude confidence, playfulness, humor, non-neediness, and still present being a challenge through the mundane text. There no longer is a feeling within for a need to discuss who lies more, or whose jealous girlfriend burnt someone’s photos, and etc.

This is not to vilify anyone who uses the openers but rather, to only bring attention to the matter of the epiphany which takes places at that point in time when you realize, “Holy cow! I do NOT really need this sh*t anymore!"

It's what I call:

Doing a lot within the simplicity.


Doing a lot of subtlety within low movement.
One of best examples I can think of comes from movies and acting. Let’s make it obvious: Watch a really bad actor, or yet watch a pro-wrestler act during on of his interviews or schticks and you’ll super exaggerated movements, over the top behavior, yelling, and loud gestures. They are doing a lot. You can see it from 200 yards away.

These wrestlers start thinking they’re actually actors and start acting in movies. Well, if you’ve seen wrestlers act in movies, you’re familiar with the nauseous feeling you get in the pit of your stomach.

Now, observe a world class actor like Jack Nicholson and as you watch the performance, it appears as though he is doing nothing. In fact, while watching Jack, most people will think, “Sh*t, this is really easy. He is doing nothing. I can do what he is doing. Anyone can.”

However, he is doing a lot within that simplicity. In fact, he is actually doing MORE than the wrestler we can see from 200 yards away.

The difference lies within the subtleties.

So what the heck does this all mean anyway? As men progress through this journey of learning how to attract women, they have a choice: They can forever be stuck on focusing on the superficial, or they can decide to take it a step further and start focusing on the intricate subtleties of the interaction which could very well take place within the simple confines of “How are you.”

It's learning to do a lot within very little.


It's conveying your traits on a higher level yet moving on a lower plain.


It's learning to Feel more and thinking less.


It's being able to freely express the human experience through fluidity and freedom of self expression, feeling un-constricted if even it's for limited spurts at a time.
The way I see it is that you reach a point where much of this stuff becomes second nature.

You can then decide to go the organic route of instinctively feeling your way, expressing yourself, and having a great time while doing it, OR go the inorganic mechanical route of trying to analyze everything and break things into more and more algorithms.

It's an interesting and pivotal choice, and anytime you read writings by guys who have been around a while, you can very quickly distinguish which route they have chosen.

They’ll either be from the rigid routine spitting school, or the organic flow type of guys.

I can tell you this, the second group is a lot more fun to hang out with. At any rate, choose what suits you best, and progress towards what you envision yourself to become. Be what you want to become.

Are you going to choose to be the guy who is in a state of frenzy lost in complex algorithms analyzing every single interaction?

Or

Are you going to choose to be the guy who ACTUALLY ENJOYS social interactions with women and enjoys flirting with them?

It’s up to you to make this decision. If you’re the in latter group, you’d want to start focusing on the SUBTEXT of your interactions. What does your body language convey? How about your tonality?

What does your attitude convey?

How can you project this through your natural expression?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:41 pm 
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Nice post. I totally agree with everything you stated. Eventually your going to have to drop the routines and start making your own original material. I try to stray away from "canned" material as much as possible, and it has worked wonders for me. The lack of canned material allows you to develop your sense of humor, and your wit naturally not just memorizing pre-planned lines. I am not saying that routines should not be used, heck I use them at certain points in a conversation too, but they probably make up maybe 10% of the interaction.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:08 am 
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I only had time to skim it, but what parts I did read were very well said and I agree with.

The only thing that I'd like to say is that routines and canned material isn't necissarily bad, but the stuff that you are talking about, the stuff that has hit the mainstream, the stuff the big name gurus put out there to the masses is definitely a crutch/training wheels to get people out there and on their feet and once they are going, then they need to learn to drop it. Actors do similar things when taking drama classes, you start with the over the top exaggerations and then slowly refine it and get the same things across, but with subtlety as you pointed out. I like to call those "pre-packaged" materials, whether they're routines or openers or whatever, cause you can make your own canned stuff that you can use and that will work just great, because it is yours and original and not everyone is using it.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:12 am 
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Mystery once said that if he spots a 10, he would never go up to her with anything other than practiced, canned, tried and true routines. Because if you're making stuff up on the spot, you're liable to screw up and lose her right then and there. So run your lines and go autopilot if she really matters to you, then you can go manual once you're in Comfort.

That said, I think once you get a vibe going it is unnecessary to run routines, because she's having so much fun talking to you it is unnecessary to DHV using stories or magic tricks or negs.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:51 pm 
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This is a post from heaven. I agree with all of it. I never liked the canned routines much such as the opinion openers and jealous girlfriend stories. Although there are certain techniques that you should game each girl with.

But overall, excellent post.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:40 am 
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No they are training wheels...take them off when your ready

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:09 am 
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Quote:
No they are training wheels...take them off when your ready
I agree 100%...i wouldnt call them a crutch. For the most part they are a tool to help us have something to say so that we may focus on other things. Once we take care of the other things they should be put away and only used to fill gaps.

Some of the "routines" i use are either self made, or not mainstream and i use them only when i cannot converse normally, or in special situations (say them pulling out a cell phone).

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:32 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
No they are training wheels...take them off when your ready
I agree 100%...i wouldnt call them a crutch. For the most part they are a tool to help us have something to say so that we may focus on other things. Once we take care of the other things they should be put away and only used to fill gaps.

Some of the "routines" i use are either self made, or not mainstream and i use them only when i cannot converse normally, or in special situations (say them pulling out a cell phone).
"Training wheels"...."crutch"....I say poe-tae-toe, you say poe-ta-toe. If you are dedicated enough to actually work on becoming a PUA and you go out there and use pre-packaged material, then it's probably because you were broken when you stumbled across the community and you need to learn how to walk, which is much like needing a crutch.

Sounds kinda negative maybe and maybe that's the objection, but that's because I think that relying on and always using pre-packaged, or even personally made canned material, is just not growing and becoming a true artist. When was the last time you heard of an artist using one of those "paint by numbers" pictures that kids often do? Never! That's cause they are free-handing, just as true artists should always do.

I'm starting to think that if a guy just uses canned stuff all the time and figures out how to dress and act to attract women and then just does that all the time and doesn't show his true personality and just learn the principles and then incorporate them, then he's not so much an artist, as he is an engineer. Engineers don't typically think outside the box and be creative and artistic, they just use the tools they are given, in just the way that they were taught how, over and over and over again and merely vary the application based upon the situation. Sounds a lot like someone that memorized everything they could from books/workshops/seminars/dvds and then just reproduced what they saw, doesn't it?

BE an ARTIST! Learn what you can, study the techniques and the premices, much like an art student studies about light and shadow, textures and the uses of different mediums and then apply those PRINCIPLES and create your own masterpiece. Don't be the guy that spends his life merely reproducing other people's great achievements and simply making a knock-off version of The Mona Lisa every day. Take what you learned from how other's did their work and make it part of who you are and then let who you are be an artist and make your own masterpieces.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:14 am 
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I honestly don't know if anyone else feels this way... I'm pretty new to PUA in general, and the biggest problem that I have with routines is that so many of them require you to completely lie about something... i just don't like that


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:20 am 
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i am new to this community, so i don't know too much, but this topic seems quite interesting.

If being a PUA is truely an art, one could compare it to composing music, or writing books: You have to learn how to write music, learn music theory, the basic stuff before you go on your own. A musician who never learned how to write music from the "canned" formulas (routines) can not go on and free-stlye. You have to know and master the rules, and routines first.


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