Hey guys,

I don't know if it's me or girls' expectations are changing or what, but I've been on about 5-6 dates in the past three months, and they've ALL ended with "bad a great time but ..."

Most were online, one was a pickup in the "traditional" sense, I used a funny opener in a bar, we chatted all night.  She insisted that we hug when I left her with a friend of mine for conversation practice (the guy insists he has no game and I wanted him to experience how easy it was to just shoot the shit with girls; she wasn't interested in him.  She texted me tons before we met, even wanting to add me to Facebook.  

We went out on a date.  When the check came out, I put the folder down with just my card in it, and she asked "Are you sure?" (generally I'm finding now that if the girl offers to split the check, it means she doesn't see a future with you and doesn't want to seem bitchy or entitled). She told me she thought we'd be better friends.  I asked why and didn't really get the straight answer.

Last week I dated another girl, again, another $80.  I ALWAYS walk arm in arm with a girl when we leave a venue, and have never gotten objection.  This time, as I walked her to her car, she kind of subtly had an excuse to let go, like reaching into her purse for her cell phone, reshifting her purse to another shoulder.  I didn't re-"grab" because an felt that would've come off needy.  I always get a hug and usually a kiss on the cheek.  I did that night.

Texted a day or so later, response: "I don't think I'm up to it.". Shifty explanation.

Oh and by the way, before I meet these girls, I get incessant, enthusiastic texts from these girls.  Those stop after date 1.

What the fuck is going on here??!!  I mean, I did set up a fake OKCupid account with an attractive girl's profile and did have 80 messages by the end of the next day.  One guy even tried that " I've already divorced you in my mind" bullshit.

I suppose I could go to more bars and clubs and be just another one of those cheesy guys fawning over the hot girls.  I've been doing this since late 07, and even *I* see breaking into a tabled set as one hell of a cliff to climb.

I think there's a different social norm on "not paying until she sleeps with you.". 

Or

"I have a general rule of never paying"

While I'm not wining and dining these girls (hell, if they were interested in just THAT I'd be getting second dates!)  If you offer to split the check, she'll see you as cheap, especially if you were only out for drinks."

A female friend told me she'll alway offer to split, but I he takes her up on it, she doesn't *necessarily* hold it against him, but if he does a second time, she'll have some serious concerns about him financially, then it's just a no-go.

Many do let me pay without saying a word and simply say "Thank you very much!"

How do you guys establish the second date?

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

You are doing it wrong, and if you keep doing what you are doing you will get the same results, i have cover this topic many many times on the forum... This is the 50 th time i will explain it...

When you do what is call DATING/COURTSHIP ACTIVITIES, women will look at you and put you on the stack of application as "prospective boyfriend applicant" the problem with this is that she will micro analyze and screen super hard to see if you got bf potential... Then she will find any flaws to friendzone you, or if you are successful to delay sex, you want to be the dude she wants to "fuck" be the fuck buddy, the forward, the friends with benefit, the lover. Then if you want a gf is easier to work your way backwards... I encourage you to look at my field, lay reports, text game, do not do what i do, is just to get the idea... What you want to do is make the second encounter as low pressure as possible, i usually set up the second encounter as a sexual encounter. Look at the skills secrets to texting, will help you tons. if you do the so call dates:

1.- coffee at starbucks
2.- coffee at barnes and noble
3.- Park
4.- walk by the beach
5.- rent a movie at your place or her place or any excuse to be in your place or her place.
6.- go out for drinks.
7.- go dancing.

6 and 7 could be with other people involve... Do not do, dinner(unless at your place), theater movie, etc... Nothing that is from hollywood movie dating or traditional dating..

_________________
Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a dancefloor/club environment, check out my blog and youtube channel:
http://www.dancefloorseduction.com

Dancefloor/Club game youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/dancefloorseduction

It sounds to me like on these dates you're not making a deep enough connection. Maybe you're just doing small talk or being so gentlemanly that you aren't creating excitement and connection. In order to build a deeper bond you have to really go on an emotional roller coaster in your conversation. You also have to use some touch to move things forward. It sounds like you're being too cautious.

_________________
http://www.communicationskillsactivities.net <-Click to Learn Secrets from a World Champion Public Speaker

I'm with skills360...why are you taking these girls out for dinner? It's a bad place to be. Sitting across a table, no great way to kino, the constant distractions. Also...EVERY guy on the planet has asked her out to dinner....

Why are you doing what every other guy does?

PS - Honestly I don't really care who pays. I think if that's really the determining factor on attraction that you're missing something super serious.

Follow the 3-Day Rule:

Day 1: Meet

Day 2/Date 1: Coffee date or grab a pint with your friends. Do some karaoke.

Day 3/Date 2: Dinner or drinks at your place. Put on a movie and make sweet love.

It works for me 95% of the time.

To clarify, not all of these are dinner dates. About a third were, and that was only because we were out for drinks at the dinner hour and the idea to get food came up. The rest have just been meet-ups for drinks that last a couple hours.

And about who pays, I never said it was the determining factor, just something I've noticed, that's all.

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

Who pays? you should pay, but the best is not to put yourself in the "i have to pay position".... Paying is irrelevant.

_________________
Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a dancefloor/club environment, check out my blog and youtube channel:
http://www.dancefloorseduction.com

Dancefloor/Club game youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/dancefloorseduction

a girl will sleep with you because she is attracted, not because you pay or not pay

if you think the primary factor in a girl sleeping with you, is who takes the bill at the end of a first date, then something is going on

alot of this likely has to do with frame control, girls want to feel ''in love'' or that you are that ''right guy'' before they sleep with you

it is quite possible you are focusing on what you can get, as apposed to the girl in front of you, and sleeping with her

here is a practical plan of action

-offer different logistics then a dinner, start expressing more that you being attracted to her is the reason you want to see her, and she is primary reason for you to want to be around her, not the sex, not the number, not the date, not who pays, but her

you want to make her feel good because you like her, and the two of you hanging out is a win/win, just create the logistics for sex to happen sooner rather then later, don't look to her to dictate when that happens, make it easy for sex to happen on the first date, and be willing to take the responsibility and assume all the risk yourself

Okay, here's a great example of one coming up. This girl wants to meet for "lunch or coffee" not Friday night, but midday Saturday! Not that night. (I'm doing a speed dating thing with a buddy anyway that night so it's no big deal, first one I've ever been to and it has an open bar afterwards

I told her over the weekend when she brought it up that I hadn't planned that far ahead and my Saturday was open for now, "but you don't want to do anything later?" she said she has a proposal for her job to work on; a friend says she's probably got a date that night. A female friend thought it sounded wierd that she wanted to do something like lunch on a Saturday and as a first meet. I agreed to a "coffee or lunch" anyway.

I've heard a general sentiment that girls save their "likes for the day and their loves for the night ". any thoughts on this?

Would you do a daytime first meet? In light of what we've discussed in this thread, how do you think I should play this?

_________________
Http://Dating-Musings.com

bullshit irrelevant, you are you, daytime, night time, you communicate how you communicate

no one can really tell you how to be someone else, you have to make the choice yourself to move in a direction towards change

On vacation I stumbled upon a true natural, a natural who had the results most PUA's here (think they) want to have. I asked him about his score on lays, cause I was curious. This guy was only 16 years old then and already made out with 60 different girls, and had sex with approximately 20 he said.

Out of curiousity i asked him, how the f*ck he did that. He just said:
You ask the girl over for a movie night, you lay them on the bed, start making out and then it she complies, you fuck her.

It is that this thread has been brought up, or else I would have forgotten.

But he was right. I had a movie night with a girl, we lied on the bed and within 20 minutes we were heavily making out. I couldn't go further then rubbing her tits but his advice did work. Hope it helps u 2.

_________________
The Learning Journal:
--> wallies-journal-vt141967.html

I don't know whats wrong with women. I have avoided sleeping with a lot of women simply because they want to feel like you love them. Sex is just entertainment. You stick your prick in a vagina it feels good then you get back to real life. Sex is just adult enterainment, but women make out to be some kinda soul connection. They're full of crap and thats why women get played. They're trying to make sex mean something that it doesn't.

Meh, you probably seem like a boring run of the mill guy, that's why. Refer to skills360's advice for more details.

A 16 year old advise is irrelevant, for many reasons, 1 of them lack of field experience, age, and target demographics... I can go on with a 3 page of reasons not to listen to that kid advise, however he was right about one thing, getting in the room with you, and in the bed....

_________________
Learn the proper way to maximize your results in a dancefloor/club environment, check out my blog and youtube channel:
http://www.dancefloorseduction.com

Dancefloor/Club game youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/dancefloorseduction

I second this method. I've done it for years and it's just so simple. Traditional dates are tough. You have to hold her interest all that time and escalation can be awkward in public.

So sit back, let the movie do the work, and escalate freely. You can take her on all the traditional dates you want after you've fucked her.