I've been following this thread from the onset. And somewhere in the middle I gave up because I couldn't find a definitive answer...

Then I read this short paragraph.
...and realised there was some kinda transcendal truth in there. Something in that paragraph was bothering me. I read this paragraph OVER and OVER and OVER again. The monkey didn't say kill or DO NOTHING. He explicitly said 'kill or DON'T KILL.' The difference is subtle but VERY VERY different.

And I thought about it some more. Went out for 15 minutes for a smoke...




and Kasabi it is obvious which one IS the answer...You've pointed it out as clear as day... Yet despite this, I still I struggled to accept it as THE answer because I wasn't 100% sure. Someone hadn't said, ' Hey look this is THE answer ____.'

So what did I do? I know the answer exists in this thread. That is fact. So I went through the thread from the beginning, post by post just in case the one post I thought was the answer... wasn't the answer.


Then I came to the realisation I can never be 100% sure. And someone TELLING me, this is the answer, wouldn't really help me realise the answer.

And in doing so I found THE answer.

The end. Holy shit... I'm enlightened.

Clap...clap clap.

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Well done Tweeby. I realised this too, as Kasabi had so much emphasis on not telling the answer and not KNOWING the answer (this will confuse people even more.)

The fun thing about koans is that it's an epiphany. When you come to a realization from being in the here and now, there can be no doubts whatsoever. You get it . . . and that's it.

If you come up with an answer, and you're 'unsure' of it, you can be sure that you haven't meditated enough. This is why so many here have finished their replies with, "What do you think? . . . How did I do?" or acceptance of total defeat, "There is NOTHING I can do! Kill it! Save it!"

Drop your ego and you'll get it.

One last clue:

The monkey has basically toyed with the boy with a little NLP.

You always give the tantrum tossing kid a choice. He's yelling and screaming and going nutty, so you go, "Here's your choice. We can go to the ice cream store or we can go to the book store." - The kid will usually choose one of the two options. Nice little trick but there are a million other things he could do as well right?

Here's a few things that I realised.

1) Don't try to argue about whether the monkey exists or doesn't exist. Or why it has the ability to talk. It DOES. Just accept this.

2) Understand WHY the monkey says, 'kill or don't kill.' He doesn't say kill or do NOTHING. This is VERY important.

3) Accept the monkey is telling the truth. He sees the future. Just accept this. The boy has two choices. One of those choices will result in his mother dying, the other will result in his father dying... Accepting this has all to do with 'DROPPING YOUR EGO.' (as kasabi has mentioned)

4) And here's the gimme... Ask yourself given the certainty of this outcome... Does the monkey speaking ACTUALLY change anything!? Think about this one...

Here's a little story about point number four.

. . .

Imagine there are two men. The man gets told by the doctors he's going to drop dead in five years time. He has a medical condition. During the course of the rest of his life he meets many women. But he never takes it further because he doesn't want to put them through shit. He mopes around at work and he lives his life like a death sentence.

Now imagine there's another man. At the same time, five years to the dot he gets hit by a truck and dies. But he doesn't KNOW this. He lives his life no different. He goes out meets a woman... He gets to know her...she falls for him, they fuck and have a few kids. They buy and house and everything is GOOOOOD.

Now ask yourself, what is the difference between man #1 and man #2. The end outcome is exactly the same. But who leads the better life?

Now ask yourself again... If the outcome is certain. Does the monkey speaking ACTUALLY change anything? So why are you so bothered with his choices?

Get it???

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The boy does not know what to do. There is too little information for the boy to make a decision on, only assumptions. He should realise this and ask the monkey for more information.

Re-read point 3) in my post.

You're thinking with your ego... You still think something else can be done to avoid calamity, by asking the monkey for more information.

This isn't the point of the koan.

When you accept that you can't avoid calamity that's when you truly understand. And that's OK. But what are you going to do about it?

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"I know nothing, therefore, I know everything"

OR

"When we stop trying to find the answer to something...we found it".

You're the first on this thread to pay the monkey any respect. You don't fear him and you don't kneel before him, you respect him. This shouldn't be any surprise as you've shown a similar type of respect and thoughtfulness over a simple utensil.

2-vt61690.html?start=15

Where in the World are you? You're one of the few people on this board that I'd love to meet up for a beer and a chat.

i'll take it as this: when you do anything, its either WIN or WIN.

Why o why did I read this thread? And now that I'm posting it'll go to the top of list so another bunch of suckers will get to ponder on it.

If I was in that situation i would barter and befriend the monkey, breaking the two paths that the monkey sent the boy spiraling on, and when it's back is turned, i would kill it then. Or just say "If you talk again i'll kill you, and if don't talk i'll kill you". Playing his own game back. Shattering his monkey mind, with the full force of the human mind. And when the monkey talks to change the situation again i'd kill it.

This riddle obviously has nothing to do with what the boy would do, more like something to do with where the thinkers attention is focused: on the boy? the monkey? the question? or ourselves contemplating the question? Yeah I'm going to carry on. . .

Life added a new segway regarding "Mr.Monkey".

I may THINK the monkey is alluding to "Regardless of decision, death is universal", but is that what Monkey is trying to say?

Before I shoot my arrow...I'd do best to learn the monkey's view; what is monkey saying? What does monkey mean?

Perhaps, depending on monkey's answer, I may just let monkey go. OR, I can kill it.

Whether I do or not, life still goes on, and all of the constants (Failures, successes, births, deaths), still occur.

Better to see things until their end instead of YOU deciding to end it by your own terms. No man is an island.

I dont get it. Does this story have an answer or it's just about improving your imagination or keep buising your mind just for entertain?

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the kid has just taken speed and he/she now sees a talking monkey :p

The kid representing you, has all the power.the kids aim/goal was to go hunting I.e kill an animal.you play god, you decide who lives who dies. When you accomplish your goal there will be the consequence. Of your mother dying but youhave acheived. Your goal.

Basically think before you act and every action has a consequence whether good or bad.

Is the monkey threatening the boy? Why is it telling him this?


Edit: Got it. Damn this kept my mind going all night.

"A young boy went into the bush to hunt with his bow and arrow. He saw a monkey on the branch of a tree and aimed his arrow. The monkey spoke to him, "Stop. You must think before you shoot me. If you kill me, your mother will die and if you do not kill me, your father will die.""

...to which the boy replies "aaaaaaah! A talking monkey!"