I have been taking notice that many people have negative perceptions behind Pick-Up (namely those who are not already submerged in its culture). Some call it manipulative, while others claim it as simple acts of desperation.

Personally, I think there are many psychological benefits in Pick-Up that help not only with women, but in other areas of life as well. It allows for self-improvement as it evidently builds one's confidence.

Consequently, however, there can be negative side effects as well. I notice that some PUAs become more apathetic to women. In turn, they wind up hurting a lot of people and losing a lot of friends in the process.

So this is a two-part question:

A. Does pick-up have a negative connotation?
B. Do you think the connotation is justified?

Discuss.

Yes I think it has a negative connotation. Even Mystery said he didn't want his methods referred to as Pickup Arts but Venusian Arts. In my mind the art of "Pickup" is something that ZIP said during our PMZ meetup. "Pickup isn't just about meeting women, it's about picking up the attitudes of everyone around you!" That stuck with me and I realized she was right it's more than just getting the girl. It's leaving everyone you come into contact with better than you found them.

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

That's why when I talk about it, I say I do "social dynamics". That's what we're learning here, social dynamics, how to interact with other people better and get what we want from any situation. People keep telling me, "Pickup sounds manipulative, or sleezy, you should call it something else!" Unfortunately the community was here long before any of us were around and it's gonna be here when we're gone I'm betting, so I don't think we are gonna change the overall name, but when you're talking to people by yourself you can refer to it as social dynamics instead and they will look up to you, instead of down on you I find.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I disagree not with what you say, more so than I do with your reasons for your conclusion. Pick-up does have psychological benefits that extenuate to other aspects of our lives, however, these are not a result of a pseudo motivational characteristic of pick-up.

In fact, pick-up is entirely the opposite! It forces you have challenge your competency and admit failure in one of the most sensitive areas of life, aside from money.

What pick-up does is eliminate the poorly taught social mannerisms of the masses. For those who learn from its teachings, they metamorphosis their personality from treating it like a worm, to admiring it like a butterfly. For others, they become the by-product of our industrial world. Machines that replicating techniques and lines.
There is nothing wrong with becoming apathetic. The true dividing line is the haze of morality. When we start doing things despite willfully knowing that in order to reap a reward we must intentionally do harm onto others.
Will you understand my answer? I doubt that all will...

a) Yes
b) Yes

Why? Society deems pick-up to have a negative connotation and thereby self-rationalizes the answer to b, which is that such connotations are justified. For the same reason that woman are chastised for being sexually promiscuous; men are chastised for their inability to trigger this promiscuity. These abilities are supposed to come naturally, per society, the male and a lack thereof in essence a detraction from manhood.

It's funny to watch the paradoxes that society can create. Want an easy example? Find a readily recognizable pick-up line that is not obnoxious. Watch the reaction of a female who recognizes it as such. She'll laugh at your feeble attempts to obtain her, despite this being the VERY thing that she wants. And yeah, I know, DLV, social value, etc. The point still remains.

I tell people i study social dynamics...but i dont have a title for such a person. I think people outside of the community associate PUA with player...even though we are not.

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-Ka-
"Be the same, only better."

let me guess... sophomore philosophy major...

If you're this bad guessing at my profession heaven only knows your success out on the field.

Durus, I merely present the reality I see before me; the only one I have chosen to accept. If you don't like my reality, reject it for your own...

Jay Wa presented a question to which, as a result of my own supplication, I provided an answer.

In more layman's terms:
Pick-Up is seen negatively because we are assumed to have the skills of attraction much like we learn to walk -- naturally. Unfortunately, this is not the case!

I do not blame you for making your snide comment; I am often accused of being far too formal in my posts. Mix that in with a healthy dose of logical thinking and you've got to take it all with a grain of salt. Ultimately, the 'game' is an emotional one.

To be quite honest, I was really thinking about that all weekend. Because when you walk into the place you want to be the party that means your attitude will effect everyone else's. I like this Ideal though...

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AA what, Im full PUA NOW BIOTCH!!!

www.myspace.com/zheruto

Hey how we all doing?

Everything has a negative connotation and a positive no matter what it is. And as a person self doubt is normal so the question then lies are you doing this for good reasons or are you that player? If you are doing it to help yourself and make you better all around than no other opinion matters.

Although I have seen many people who helped this negative emotion grow.
More people should look at Style's rule

"NEVER LEAVE A GIRL WORSE THAN WHEN YOU FOUND HER"

ChowforNow,

the--------------------------------------->Saint

"Whether or not you agree with his harsh, straight to the point mentality, truth be told, he’s the most active/ dedicated / motivating member on this board. He’s routinely getting newbies and current members out sarging, pushing them into sets, given them suggestions and advice, replying to posts more often then anyone else. (Come out Wednesdays and you’ll see what I mean). Also, I have not once heard him making excuses about not going out and pussying out. If anyone else can show me this, I will automatically promote you to any status that you want on this board. (including admin).

Now .. I (and others) .. have tried a more sugar coated / feel good approach to getting guys to come out. Truth be told, it hasn’t worked anywhere close as well. I'm dissappointed that with all the free resources, and the cool guys that we have offering free advice, so few people actually make use of it, go out consistantly, and get better with women, instead of dabbling and keyboard jockeying."

"How did it start?Well, I dont know.I just feel the craving.I see the flesh and it smells fresh.And it's just there for the taking."

"Looking at my own reflection When suddenly it changes Violently it changes Oh no there is no turning back now You've woken up the demon in me"

"Only see, somehow it always seems that I'm learnin' or something I can never be It dosen't matter to me, 'cause I will always be that pimp I see
in all my fantasies I don't know your fucking name.So what?
Let's.fuck"

"Scrutinize every word, memorize every line
I spit it once, refuel, reenergize, and rewind
I give sight to the blind, mind sight through the mind

Wrong. As people experience success in the field their confidence increases accordingly.
Wrong. You are not admitting failure. You are simply polishing up on a social skill. Some people are obviously more advanced than others -ahem-. Where you take it from there is up to you.
There is something very wrong with being apathetic. It eventually becomes the great destroyer in all relationships. That's why some PUAs struggle in long term relationships.
I can tell you like to stroke your own cock. . .a lot.

Then why would you answer yes to the second part of my question. .Obviously, you misunderstood it; your evidence points to the fact that this connotation is unjustified.

Game. Set. Match.

I agree with alot of what Papi says. Men are supposed to chace women and naturally know how to pick them up.

IMO Pick-up has a negative perception. But thats by outsiders, who are not in it. Its seen as sleezy and desperate. When i started getting into social dynamics i was at rock bottom. I felt really rejected by the world and felt this was the last straw. I was desperate and knew that i wanted to change the path i was heading because I coudlnt wrap my brain around how i could not meet and talk to the girls i wanted to date and hook up with.

I now understand that I had to change myself from the inside out. Picking up women has become secondary over improving my confidecne and self esteem.

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success is my only mother fucking option, failure is not.

I do agree that pick up (or social dynamics), has a negative side.The more you learn on peoples behavior,the less you respect people.I mean, come on, pick up skills can be used to manipulate people,as I've learned.Their no more surprise in most people as you can label their behavior (lmr, fluffing ect.) I mean its great for improving nearly every thing in life, but their is a darker side...

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Treat dem mean to keep dem Keen
Nice guys finish Last.Start your Evil-lution

You only affirm my statement. Visible cause and effects are not directly correlated with the reason something occurs. Simply because increased confidence, which in itself is up for discussion, is a by-product of pick-up does not mean that it has some sort of motivational aspect. The sun doesn't shine because I wake up every morning -- although on the surface it may appear to do so.
Have you ever thought to yourself that you may never master true pick-up? If your answer is yes, your underlying reason may lie herein. By study these techniques you cannot help but admit that there is a fundamental flaw in the way you approach, meet and attract woman. If you've implemented any type of techniques or routines, internalized any of the topics or skills taught here you have admitted that they way you do it doesn't work...or work good enough. Most, if any, come here imbued with the knowledge shared here...so how can you 'polish' that which you have yet to possess.
Apathy is far too subjective and I am at fault for using it so liberally. If you like start a new poll on what apathy means and I'd be happy to discuss it there.
C&F -- you bet I do it all the time.

Simply because you put your tennis racket down doesn't mean the game is over. There is a tennis ball still coming back to your side of the court.