Hi guys,

recently, I had my first first date. It's embarrassing, because I'm already 29, but never had much luck with girls. I tried to throw in some things I've read on this forum, but most of the night was pretty AFC. Anyway, I want to tell you the whole story -from meeting her to the first date- in detail.

It all started when I was drinking with my friend at a bar. Suddenly, I had a rare moment of courage, and started talking to a girl. The conversation flowed pretty naturally, and I actually had a good time. From the beginning, I tried to touch her from time to time. At some point, she asked me; "isn't your friend bored?", and I replied: "yes, but this was a fun conversation, we should continue it at another time". So I got her number and left.

I never got a girl's number before, so I started to read up on text gaming. Based on what I read, I wrote a few texts to fix a first date. In summary, I texted - in a fun way - some references to what we talk about the previous evening. Then I asked her if she still had some days free next week, and we fixed a date.

From the moment the date was set, I was feeling nervous in every cell of my body. Couldn't sleep or eat properly for three days. I imagined everything which could go wrong, acted out conversations in my head … it was a nerve-racking few days. I really hope I will be more comfortable next time. Any tips to feel more comfortable?

The date itself was average. In the beginning, I had a hard time trying to make her feel comfortable, because I wasn't comfortable myself. After a while though, conversation started flowing, I calmed down, and started remembering some pua advice. These are the - alleged - advices I followed:

1. comfort building
I remembered that it's important to capture a girl's imagination. So I told her we should flee off together to south-america. I noticed she really liked it. However, at the end of the date, I screwed up. She said to me: "we should still go to south-america". And I said: "yes, OR we can do something adventurous next time". I was just trying to get her excited for the next date, but unwillingly took away the south-america story.. Anyway, I was tired, so the ending of the date was a bit awkward.

2. approval of other women
I talked to the waitress in a fun, entertaining way. She was a HB9 (my date a HB7), and very friendly. When I went to the counter to pay (I said to my date she could pay in the next bar), I was joking with the waitress. When I went back to my table, I noticed my date had a slightly jealous look on her face.

3. multiple venues
I took her to a second venue. Convenient, because she could pay this time. Not because of the money, but I didn't want to come across as a needy, all-paying AFC. However, this second venue was a lot less intimate, and there was no way of sitting close to her. Result; no keno escalation.

In the end, the date went pretty well - given the fact is was my first first -, although also a lot of things could have gone better. First of all, the end of the date was awkward. The plan was to kiss her at the end of the evening, but there was no keno escalation at all, and I'm probably closer to the friend zone now. Second, even more important, I was still very nervous in the beginning, and couldn't make a good first impression.

At the end of the evening, I sent her a text with "hey, we should run off together tomorrow morning", and she replied positive. I don't know if I still have a chance, but I'm gonna invite her to go climbing tomorrow. I'll let you guys know if she still wants to see me. If you recognize anything in my stories, any mistakes I made, tips …. I'd be happy with any new insights.

I was reading all this, thinking "good," "good," "natural," and then: "WTF." So you come up with some story about fleeing to South America on the first date because you read it in a PUA training manual, pretty far-flung. But hey I do not think you messed up at all. It was a very good thing to say "Or we can do something next time." It was good. You used something unplanned that came up and made clear that you wanted to see her again, plus you might have intrigued her by refering to the excitement. You did alright objectively. Don't try to imitate too much shit, stay close to yourself and your character.

Playing around with the waitress. Well you showed you are comfortable with other women AND socialize easily. Then again I once had a comparable scenario and the girl freaked out completely because she felt neglected. Women are so whimsical, no PUA thingy is sure-fire. Just go with what flows naturally from your character, intuition, and what seems appropriate in the situation. Don't try to pre-stage too much. It never works because the moods of women are as fleeting as the ripples of a roiling ocean.

If you have no way to touch her, have one drink and propose seeing another bar. Then grab her hand on the table and start to caress it. Always works for me. Then again some people like to start with a kiss on the dancefloor. Personally I think it's too risky. With grabbing the hand, like caressing over the back of the hand between the knuckles first, subtly, you can see her response. Maybe she will grab your hand. Then you're cool. If not, it was nothing awkward or weird and you won't lose face.

For instance there was this girl that on date 1 I grabbed both her hands in a bar and she walked me home and had kiss close. Date 2 she walked me to the park after seeing some bars. I stroked her hair and she kissed me several times quite deeply. Date 3 I kept more distance (because I was also seeing other girl and didn't want her to close in yet wanted to keep her warm so only had goodbye kiss). Date 4 I touched her stomach at some point in a subtle way yet she was sort of surprised by this and had a pretty shocked reaction. But because I already consider her mine since on date 2 she already discussed "doing it" I just thought: "No need to play this." and kept totally calm, relaxed, intriguing as I always am with women and she looked a bit silly with her shocked body language for those few seconds. Then everything proceeded as usual, which means exactly the way I want it. This week I booked her for a neck massage.

If you feel nervous, don't beat yourself up because of it. It's only natural, it means you care. There's so many young people out there, girls and guys, who always feel vacuous and placid and unexcited by anything. For them even love affairs are like a glass of tea from a bag that's been used 10 times already. So the fact you feel excited means that you are alive. Enjoy it, it means you're starting to feel attracted to a person and want it to go right, and the kick will be enormous once it goes right. Your instincts set you up to feel attracted to girls, and this excitement is the natural result of that.

And of course you have a chance you fool! If you don't get to lay a girl on the first date, so what. I mean I do 9 out of 10 times, but then again in my relationships the passion is always extremely intense and mutual yet it also dies out pretty quickly unfortunately. But it's because my nature to fuel all passions and excitement to the peak as soon as I can. Maybe your strategy is even better for the long term because she will feel comfortable with you around. This gives you opportunities to learn about her interests, character, hobbies, life. And thus more ways to deepen communications by going into to these topics.

Hope this helped.

I know, the story about South America seems far fetched. I didn't actually read about the story itself on a PUA forum though. I just read you should capture her imagination, and made up this story the weekend before. It actually goes something like this:

her: ... I like to travel ... (this was my "conversation hook")
me: You know what? We should flee of to South America together, build a farm and live totally isolated from the rest of the world".
her: yes!
me: With my skills, I can build a house, provide electricity ... And you.. well... with your background (economics) I'm not sure what you could do actually.
her (excited): I can set up a shop, so we can sell ... etc...

Off course, I didn't know the specifics of my story yet, but I naturally filled in the blanks during our conversation. The weekend before, I was so nervous, I tried to make up stories like this in my mind. Sounds a bit psycho, I know.

Ok, so today I sent her a text that I was gonna go wall climbing tomorrow, and asked her to join me. She sent back that she is already going to a concert then. Then, I wanted to ask her if she has time on Wednesday, but didn't in the end, because it sounds a bit needy to ask her about each day in the week. I'm not sure how to handle this yet. Any thoughts?

If I see her again, I definitely want to go for a kiss. As this is also the first time I will kiss a girl spontaneous, sure I will be nervous, but I will definitely feel alive. I'm not sure yet how I can suddenly hold her hand though. Do you just continue your conversation as before, or do you integrate the hand-holding in there? I hope after a few more dates with other girls, I can convey the same relaxed body language as you.

Thanks for all your input Mr.Marville, you helped my a lot so far. Enjoy your neck massage this week.

Yes, of course, you just continue the conversation while grabbing her hand. You can also do it in a moment of silence. It really doesn't matter. What matters is that you try.

My body language is always extremely controlled, probably due to all the years of martial arts I've been through. When I talk to girls for a while I get this rather intrusive glance behind my eyes, it goes in my voice, yet I remain calm and controlled. This is some sort of instinctual thing I guess. This is what you do: Just call her up and say: "Hello. You see, I was thinking, you and I should do something. And now I heard you have a concert. So grab your agenda and tell me when you would be available to have fun."

You did awesome pal. But next time, don't take her out for a date. It's way too cliche. Instead, take her to a place where people know and respect you and you have a great deal of social proof. This will raise your value and don't make the mistake of committing too much early on. Good luck. Hope this helps.

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Zardari

@Mr. Marville

thanks for the tips. If I read between the lines, I should always be confident and strong. It doesn't come natural to me, but I'm committed.

@Asif

thanks, although it's difficult to think of a place where I would get the necessary social proof. I did work a lot for the last 10 years (see my introduction post), so I have a lot of business contacts. I don't know how this would help me though... I also have quit a lot of friends, but I'm not sure this would help. In general, they are louder (and usually drunker) than me. I liked the date, because I could control most of what was happening. Where would you take a girl? Also, what do you mean by committing too much early on? Surely I'm over-thinking all of this way too much, but you would keep communication on the down side? Any insights are appreciated!

I would have to go against Asif´s advice from personal experience.

When i was still being trained as a teacher there was this colleague that I always talked to. She has a beautiful voice and accent so I was into her. When my teaching year ended and i received my diploma, I went to her post box (since I knew where she studied) and put a short handwritten note in there saying "let´s meet up, call me, I´d like to stay in touch." So we met at the uni cantine. However there all my buddies started popping up and since the stories to share with them are always so awesome they ended up taking so much of my attention that the girl might have felt neglected since afterwards we lost contact.

Roll with a fun group of cool guys and hot girls. This is the best way
to roll. Everyone else in the whole venue should feel envious of your
group and the social proof and fun vibing from it.
This is also how you should take out your dates! It’s time for guys
in the community to get out of the mindset of taking women out on a
date to dinner and a movie, or coffee, or a walk in the park, and instead
think more in terms of immersing her into your world, with your
friends, and your fun, and your
other girls, and your cool activities.
She should be able to fantasize
about being a part of your cool
scene.
The 1-on-1 of romance has its place, but in a woman’s mind,
that process happens in the context
of a social group, not in isolation.
The best way to do pickup is
to merge your group with her
group.
How not to roll: Do not roll in
a big group of guys. If you are
“cock-farming” then you’re absolutely devastating your social value in the venue, as well as scaring
away all the women.

This is the useful advise that I got from the greatest pua in the world - Mystery

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Zardari

Think about this though . . . Your friends are gonna find out that you have more than 1 girl. Now comes some rumour, drunken guy doesnt think for a second, gossip, etc. Eventually the girls that you try to date will learn of each other's existence and find out you're a PUA.

Guys, thanks for all the feedback.

For those of you who followed this topic, I'll briefly tell the rest of my story. A few days after the first first date, I went on a coffee date with her during the day. It went pretty well - in my opinion - and we shared some laughs, talked for about 45min. In terms of comfort building, I was doing well, but no attraction yet. On a coffee date, with a lot of other people around us, it was hard to build attraction. So my plan was to build attraction during our next evening date.

The weekend afterwards, I sent her a text to ask for an evening date. She didn't answer immediately, so I just waited... about 24 hours later, she sent me a text which said: "Hi, I think we shouldn't see each other any more, because I still have some feelings for someone else, and if I kept seeing you, it wouldn't be fair towards you." My last message was; "ok, no problem". I'm not sure if I did something wrong, if there really is someone else ... guess I'll never know.

I felt a bit bad about it at that point, but decided to keep pushing through. I'm doing the 30 days challenge now, and go to a different supermarket every day, where I try to talk with as many people as possible. Step by step, I feel myself having less and less fear to approach people. There is still a long way to go, but I'll get there .

As long as you ended up having an experience or learned something it was a success. And it sounds like you are moving forward. Everyone has to start somewhere, kudos to you.

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That one text you returned was a waste of money though.

Remember, "the very name of the Persians". With other words; Polybius´ saying that no one could have predicted the fall of an enourmous empire only 30 years ago - who would have thought their very name would be wiped out forever? This saying accentuates the impredictability of fortune - one day you might be at the top of the mountain and the next day buried under it. Once I planned a holiday with a friend who was supposedly training himself in PUA, and asked me if I was up for womanizing. Turned out he was full of approach anxiety, and we didn´t win any girls. After two weeks I return home from the holiday, and find a message in my inbox by some girl on a dating site. After the disappointing experiences of the two weeks girlhunt I find myself not in a mood to make an effort for this girl, so I just try to ridicule her to get her out of my way. It turns out the chick totally digged my arrogance and we chatted for the entire night. The next morning she gave me a call and that night we went for a dinner, I seduced her and we made love. Then made up for the holiday by spending two weeks at her place.

One day I was in a hotel making love to an extremely slim 10/10 Catholic girl, next week the whimsicalness got to her (Catholic issues, ex-boyfriend on her mind, looking for herself in life unable to commit and let herself succumb to the passion). Hearbroken, of course, and I find myself sleeping with a girl nearly every day. She is completely in love with me and would probably go to the end of the earth for me, and I want to reward her love for me and yet I find myself less physically attracted to her as my thoughts keep drifting back towards the other girl. The things we desire, strive for, and cherish, punish us and come to hunt us as curses. Remember that.

Yesterday I did something totally whacked - took a break from work and went to a university around here and sat down in a class. It was starting up new classes so no one knew another yet. I spoke to some girls and made up a story that I was taking accountancy courses. Then I said I was going back to work, the girl waited for me to fill in some stuff about an internship application and we went back together by bus because her residence was right next to my work place. Got her facebook during the busride.

Again - ARE YOU READY TO DO WHAT IT TAKES TO LIVE EPICALLY ?!?

Your intentions are good, but you are not yet taking the lead in creating attraction. For example, why did you stay seated far away from her in the second venue on your date? Why did you find it hard to create attraction in the coffee shop? And why did you accept her ridiculous excuse as a legitimate reason for not hanging out? There is a belief that underlies these behaviors, a belief that holds you back and stops you from achieving your goals. Discover what this belief is, ask yourself whether it is true, and why it should affect you the way it does.

On a sidenote, don't ask for formal dates, just invite a girl to do something together. I would only involve my friends in such activities if there's a good reason to do so (e.g. parties), because in the end you want her alone with you anyway.

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One of the most useful things you will ever learn about body language.

Timo, very good observation. I indeed have a strong believe that is holding me back, and I know exactly what it is. I believe that I'm not attractive enough to be with a cute girl. This believe had its up and downs, but it's currently on the upside.

Last summer, I went with some friends to a festival, and they asked two cute girls who is the most attractive; my brother or me (he was also there). Their immediate response was: his brother. This instantly refueled my believe that I'm not attractive enough, even though I know it really doesn't mean anything, because there will always be guys that are more attractive than me...

Anyway, I'm approaching more and more women these days, but I know this believe is very strong and is holding me back. Actually, I now realize I might be using my believe as an excuse not to succeed in some interactions. My inner voice says; "She was too cute anyway".

Slowly but steady, I'm conquering approach anxiety, but I'm not sure how to change believes that I had for so many years...

Well, the first step is identifying it, and so it is great that you did. Like I said, there are two more steps: asking yourself whether this belief is true, and if it is, whether it should affect you the way it does.

Personally, I do no think your belief is true because, for example, one girl that you found cute went on multiple dates with you. Why would she do that if she thought you unattractive? The problem during these dates was not your looks, it was that you failed to create further attraction, i.e. attraction that is not purely based on looks. Creating further attraction, however, is a skill, and it has to be learned. And you're perfectly allowed to make some mistakes while learning, that is completely normal. Next time, you will do better.

So like I said, I don't think your belief is true. But even if it was, should it affect you the way it does? Why would it prevent you from trying to create attraction? Are you afraid to cross some sort of social boundary when approaching someone who is 'out of your league'? Is it not reasonable to assume that these women will be able to indicate their boundaries? Or is the other way around, is it actually the boundary-setting that you fear, the rejection? And if it is, why should fear of rejection paralyze you into inaction? Paraphrasing Tennyson, is it not better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all?

EDIT: I'm forgetting the important final step: replacing the old belief with a new, more accurate and more helpful belief. I could make suggestions, but I think it is more powerful and it will stick better if you think of something yourself.

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One of the most useful things you will ever learn about body language.