Approaching with an INdirect opener, such as an opinion opener, however innocent the intention behind it, strikes me as fundamentally manipulative, sneaky and definitely a lie. You don't REALLY want to know who lies more, or if she saw the fight outside, or what the name of whatever song is. You're using it as an EXCUSE to start a conversation. Guys get into the habit of doing this to PROTECT THEIR EGO. By using an indirect opener, you shield yourself from the possibility of rejection, because you're LYING to her and PRETENDING you're not hitting on her. And you continue this charade until you receive enough IOIs to DEFINITELY KNOW FOR SURE you won't get rejected when you finally man up enough to actually convey interest. To me, this is just teaching guys who are already socially anxious to have EVEN LESS balls!

Being DIRECT may be cheap, low level, low energy, low effort, and lacking in creativity, thought or interest, but one thing it's definitely NOT is a LIE.

Here's the problem - you see a beautiful woman with whom you'd be interested in pursuing a sexual relationship, after getting to know her and making sure she's somewhat interesting, sane, and with whom you share some similar interests and intentions regarding a relationship.

SOMETIMES in that scenario, there happens to be something in the surrounding environment or situation that lends itself to you engaging her in conversation. Perhaps you are honestly curious about something she's wearing or you actually are interested in talking with her about a mutual acquaintance. In those cases, opening based on that is totally fine, and very natural.

HOWEVER, not all situations lend themselves to this scenario. The question is therefore - if my ONLY legitimate reason for engaging her in conversation is because she's attractive and I want to get to know her, then ANYTHING OTHER than opening based on that premise IS INDEED A LIE.

Furthermore, I believe that doing so in a forthright manner, far from conveying a lack of interest, originality, or effort, is actually welcomed by women as a sign of supreme confidence, and something that they do not hear every day. Even whilst being "rejected" by women I approach in this manner, they often compliment me on my directness, COMPLAINING that they too often are approached by men who are too indirect, apologising for having a boyfriend otherwise they would date me, and telling me they wish more guys were as confident and honest as I am.

Just those results alone after starting to be direct was enough to convince me that I was on the right track. Of course, from there you still must have good bodylanguage, eye contact, etc. and actually be able to continue the conversation and get to know one another. The opener is not a magic bullet, it's just a way to begin the interaction. I just think the best way to begin the interaction is with clear, honest, direct INTENT, and I've found that everything naturally flows a hell of a lot more naturally once I do that.

_________________
SEX Technique Material http://bit.ly/iFdky0

FREE PDF w Openers, Date ideas and Videos on Direct: http://www.sashapua.com

Note: Avoid this harmful belief stuff, cause honestly, as far as instilling fucked beliefs and messed up mental models of the world, the inner game team have that base covered!

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Good Structure is the key to success, succesful entrepenuers get rich becuase they know how to plan and co-ordinate efforts.

The guy who left his job at the factory so he could sell soap, taking out a mortgage on his house to do so, now has had his house re-possessed and has had to sell his car to pay off his debtors.

^^ - This is the kind of scenario that occurs when you "just try".

I'm not arguing neccessarily FOR MM, I'm arguing for the strategy and thinking behind it vs almost everything else I've seen in the community.

Wrong.

ALL great entrepreneurs have succeeded only because they have failed numerous times, learned from their mistakes, and kept going.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-EMOb3ATJ0[/youtube]

The mental attitude of dealing with failure the healthy way has allowed them to take positives out of situations, and using their own intuition, develop those structures that work for them to get the job done.

If your premise were true, then one could simply model the best structures and, just by sitting thinking about it, come up with a brilliant structure for whatever problem. We all know that this is pointless. There are just too many variables to consider something from a purely theoretical perspective. Whatever your system, you modify it over time, fix and replace it as EXPERIENCE shows you what works and what doesn't.

_________________
SEX Technique Material http://bit.ly/iFdky0

FREE PDF w Openers, Date ideas and Videos on Direct: http://www.sashapua.com

Bahahahahahaha!

Seriously? Don't you have a degree in something? Did they not tell you to avoid Sportswear commercials as sources of information.


Make a Managerial Decision for me...

Take John, he's just loves working in business. Yeah! it's great just that feel of the suit! Wow and those little mints you get at receptions during conferences, what? My own office oh yeah! Doing deals and negotiating Wowee can't wait to get involved! Oh yeah, the coffee stain, I was in a rush this morning And sorry about my sweaty pits, I lost track of time and had to run for the interview, buts its ok becuase I forgot my briefcase so I could run faster anyway haha! Anyway I'll email you my CV, what was the address? Oh yeah, it's on your website, sorry but I will have to leave early, accidentaly double booked with my dentist.

Take Smith, Graduated respectable university second class honours. He was here at 12:55 (5 minutes early) was courteous and proffesional in the waiting room, has all his documents in place, clean and tidy.

We need a new public relations officer to host press meeting etc, who do you think is going to be the real player for us at Fin and Blondguy Industries?


John might have some potential to go far, but smith has already shown the same potential and actualised it. John is still..... showing enthuisiasm to get stuck in, but that's about it.

Wanting to get stuck in is always a plus, but it just leads to failure if your not going to think about what you're doing.


Where are you drawing the conclusion that "an efficient plan is a recipe for success" leads to "Just sit around all day thinking about what to do"?

Who me? Newbies? Mystery himself? Are you sure you're not talking about ONLY YOUR personal experience? I guess it's labeled "indirect" but it's only a charade if you make it a charade. Again, anybody who understands effective communications ought to understand the value in THIS:
^ This is just a more effective way to communicate. It's a better way to convey your message and influence other people's emotions and behavior.
Come on . . . if it's all of those things and you still go out there and blurt out "I think you're cute, etc . . " - This is the biggest lie in the World. She's SOOOO cute and you're soooo in to her that you have no energy, will take no effort, thought, or interest to say ANYTHING that pertains to her and her life? Instead, you'll pull the only fucking one liner you have in your memory bank? You teach this?
Is you're dad the district attorney? LOL . . . So . . are you saying that an insurance salesman should tell his clients that they better buy the more expensive package so he can keep up with his mortgage payments and pay for his daughter's braces? If he doesn't . . . well he's a LIAR right? Are you telling me that you cannot imagine a better sales strategy that offers clients more VALUE, HAPPINESS, and SATISFACTION?

Come on . . I can't believe I'm even engaging you with this silly topic. You're pulling shit out of the sky just to stubbornly continue on your 'direct is best' war path. And again, there's a time and place for the direct thing but to shoot down other methods due to your own short comings is immature and silly.


Typically, I'd say that very few girls hear anything worthwhile . . . so it's just a choice for them . . .
If your goal is to hear compliments and complaints about other dudes, I guess you're doing well here. There are a thousand different ways to convey your message and there are a thousand different ways to interpret the message from others.
I agree . . . it's just that there are so many different ways to do this.

One of the first things i said - "its (M3 Model) biggest flaw in my opinion is that it doesnt clarify that you dont always start at the very beginning. sometimes you start at the end and all you have to do is lay her, sometimes you start half way through when she already likes you enough to want to qualify herself and impress you, but thats where calibration comes into effect. "

going direct is essentially a faster riskier way of building attraction because it shows positive personality traits. and like ryan said can start your interaction at A3. Sometimes your looks are solely enough to start an interaction in the the C1 stage or if shes horny, the S1 stage.

all mysterys material has to be taken with a grain of salt, some people complain that it implies that your lower value than her OFF THE START which is true but this is why we calibrate where we are BEGINNING. mysterys model and techniques are designed to be linear. with the start being shes NOT ATTRACTED TO YOU AT ALL. and the end being sex.

start
|---------------------------------------------------------|

where you start on the line is not always the same, and needs to be accounted for.

I don't see what the fuss is about.

The problem here is that a lot of people come from a place where they get laid (or think they can get laid and practice mental masturbation but whatev'), and have good social interactions. So they forget, or they never knew how complicated it can be to interact with a woman.

I can tell you, i was that guy, and MM's Method helped me, it's really good at helping people learn and notice the different phases in the interactions with women, he gives some do's and don't, introduced me to the principle of social value and some other stuff, and he makes some very good points that i and most AFCs didn't know before reading his book.

Now that i got better, i know i wouldn't use a lot of his stuff, and my best advice would probably sound like "Be alpha dude, escalate and screw her she doesn't matter", because that's who i became after that, thanks to going out-there and reading some other stuff like David X, 60s or Gambler.

But when you're starting those are not the kind of advices you are looking for, i like going direct but i would have never went direct in a million years right away because you need to have the right mindset, and confidence.

And i think MM's Method achieves just that, he makes it look easy by telling you those are the possible outcomes, this is what you can do about it, and makes it seem like some kind of Chess.

Hell i wouldn't even know about PUA if it wasn't for that fucker teaching Style how to get laid. I'd worship the guy just for that.

So Mystery if you're out-there, thank you for helpings us get laid.

Mr. stinson , i support u thought ! Hah

+1,000 to all of Ryan/Blondguy's posts in this thread.

1. I'm talking about my experience, the experience of a lot of students of MM3, most newbies, and probably Mystery himself. I can't possibly speak for you. And I know some things about "effective communication," and some of those things include SAY WHAT YOU MEAN CLEARLY and DON'T LIE. If you can open situationally, then by all means do it. But anything including routines, opinion openers and stuff that is made up for the purposes of innocently starting an interaction, to me, is PHONY, FAKE and completely unnecessary.

2. What you've described below simply seems to be the difference between SAYING something and ACTING ACCORDINGLY. Of course, the person who simply SAYS they're your friend, but doesn't act accordingly, is LYING. You have not provided an argument for why simply ACTING ACCORDINGLY without STATING your intent is any better than initially STATING your intent and then ACTING ACCORDINGLY.
Why should I show so much effort, energy and thought for a girl I have absolutely no idea about? I'm delivering the compliment because it's how I really feel at the time, regardless of what she thinks of it, without wanting or needing any kind of response. If she appreciates the compliment and is single and interested, then I will take things further and, of course, find out about her and have a getting to know each other period of a date or two before we have sex.

1. First off, PU is similar to sales, but it ISN'T sales pu-and-sales-vt83440.html?highlight=sales I'm not for a second saying that the salesman has to tell you his life story. NOT LYING is not the same as TELLING EVERY SINGLE BIT OF THE TRUTH. To me, opening with an indirect opinion opener is the equivalent of a salesperson calling someone up PRETENDING to be doing a census until they can get enough info and gauge the person's interest, before calling back another time to make a sale. Going direct is simply saying "Hi, I'm _____ from XYZ industries, providers of ABC services and products. I'd like to talk to you about this service which I believe could help increase efficiency for your business and help you increase profits." It's just stating the intent of your interaction from the start, that's all!

2. I'm supporting direct not because of some agenda, and not with random ad hoc bullshit I pick out of thin air. I'm supporting it because becoming direct in my interactions has radically transformed my dating life to the point where I have multiple long term relationships and tons of dates all the time, and has helped hundreds of students become more confident in their lives as a whole and take control and finally have choice when it comes to women. We had a student who was so bad we called him "super AA guy." http://www.sashapua.com/blog/sasha-dayg ... a-guy.html He literally was so shit scared of normal social interaction he couldn't even give out candy to a GUY he didn't know! In just a week, he is now completely cured of his social anxiety, has about 3/4 dates a WEEK, and was over at our place LAUGHING at a puatraining manual we had lying around with some indirect openers written in it! He's just the most recent and striking example of the fact that direct WORKS.
It's not my end goal. However, it is certainly a benchmark of an effective approach that women who cannot date you for whatever reason are still incredibly flattered, happy and complimentary to you regarding your interaction with them.

You're right. There are tons of ways of getting from A to B. My premise is that there is a way to get there that is simple, straighforward, honest, authentic, direct, and wastes as LITTLE time as possible battling roadblocks along the way. If you want to get to B by going via C and D, go for it, maybe it's more interesting. I'd prefer, however, to go straight to B and save money, time and effort, and so do most guys who try it!

_________________
SEX Technique Material http://bit.ly/iFdky0

FREE PDF w Openers, Date ideas and Videos on Direct: http://www.sashapua.com

why don't we all agree that inner game is more important than tactics and techniques like canned materials etc......

_________________
AK-47...When you absolutely positively have to kill every fucking orc in the room
questions about herbal medicine here-vp582526.html#582526

Funny, so are the people against you. This line does nothing for or against you.
Almost a post ago you made it clear that its not what you say but how you say it. I'm confused, I don't even think you know what you're talking about anymore.
You sound like you're trying to find a flat-mate... are you always this cold and impersonal with everyone around yo... oh wait.... sorry....
Who said Direct didn't work? Who said any other method of PU is good?

By the way, ever heard of the case of Phineas Gage? Wiki link for you ->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Ga ... al_changes
That was a guy TOTTALY in-capable of inhibiting his TRUE DESIRES in the presense of HOT women he was an UNASHAMED SEXUAL-BEING who didn't REPRESS HIS NATURAL URGES.

I find it funny that you're defintion of a real man is of one that has recieved severe brain damage!

Do you honestly put, "yeah I want to be with you forever (I'll actually fuck and chuck you)" with "Nice hat" in the same box, have you become that autistic that you can't discriminate between small talk and out-right deception?
Do we have stats for that?

you guys are focused too much on opening when its more important what you do afterwards + body language and tonality.

Now the core of M3 model or as Love systems calls it, emotional progression triad!? does work. Weither you prefer something else or you get better results using other methods doesn't mean m3 model sucks. The structure of attracting, qualification, comfort and seduction is a solid one and I don't see how this is bad for you long term.

This structure is also very open ended as there are many different ways to go about this. As for using canned openers and routines. They are very helpful for aspiring PUAs, however, Mystery himself advises to use your own material as soon as you become comfortable.

Now when you have lots of experience that you can think on your feet, be witty, cocky&funny, charming, etc. at the right time, then that's when you become a natural and reach the peak of becoming a pua. It's when you've tried lots of methods, learned to calibrate to different types of girls and different types of settings and you can handle anything being thrown at you right then and there. That's what a true PUA is.

To say direct or indirect is better is subjective as both methods have been proven to work. A true pua will find what works best for their individual self through trial and improvement.

I like it when the big posters on here debate. You read one post and you think "oh yeah totally, of course", then the next post against it you think "oh right yeah actually thats right" and back and forth that way. Makes me laugh

_________________
"You don't want girls to think you suck dick at fucking pussy"
-Seth (Superbad)

Haha thats a good way to put it while it also made made me cuckle abit
But dont MM have some good points for newbies to the game? Like it focus quite alot on beein confident, and also i like the bodyrocking... Maby not every method of pulling back when you get wrong awnser and all that but more the basic of making sure you dont stand to still and is to stiff... When your relaxed and talking to a close friend for example you will never stand stiff for example... Same thing applies when it comes to talking with girls... If someone talks to you but stand completly still it will mane you feel uncomfortable