Kasabi,

I make no apologies for my opinions. I also see no need to defend them to you. I am suspicious of PU, as is my privilege and right. Deal with it.

By the way, I never used the term weird in order to describe PU and nor will I: it's too vague, and doesn't actually cover anything that I've seen here. There's nothing weird about guys wanting to sleep with women--that's been the story since, presumably, long before Eve took a bite of the forbidden apple.

Hobbit,

Every person instinctively judges other people--be it based on clothing, looks, gender, race, income, nationality, profession or job, religion, hobbies, ect.--judging other people is not inherently wrong. If you don't judge a person based on the beliefs that he/she professes to hold, what is left for you to form your opinion? I would argue that beliefs are among the elements it is absolutely valid to judge another person on: they are self chosen, and inform many of the actions that said person will attempt to take.

It's a valuable skill for people to be able to discern where their affections should lay; a lack of such a skill often condemns the person who lacks it to a life in which they are consistently taken advantage of by all those who surround them.

Labels, although potentially damaging, can also be useful as well, particularly when viewed from the perspective of what a person calls him/herself instead of what other people call him/her. (Note--I am not arguing that the labels a person applies to him/herself are always correct. They are not, but are still useful when trying to understand someone else). Labels, for one, tell you how it is acceptable to act around someone else. They can also tell you what kind of behavior to expect from other people. Can they be damaging and misused? Absolutely. Can situations arise in which a label means one thing to one person and something else to a different individual? Absolutely, and one must always be on the lookout for such instances. At the same time, formulating a blanket view and acknowledging that it doesn't hold in all instances is far more expedient than forming an entirely unbiased opinion in every instance--something that I would argue is actually impossible anyway--and expediency is a trait that we have evolved to display, particularly in cognitive matters.

LOL . . . I think you missed an opportunity for comedy here. "I have a NO APOLOGY POLICY." would have been better; it's ironic and it rhymes. As it is, your statement is only mildy entertaining as you continue to play the role of a "14 year old pre-pubescent kid who is trying to hang out with the big boys and act tough." You've been hanging around this forum too long. You've managed to actually morph into an insecure 14 year old wannabe pua. LOL . . .

To the guys: It's much easier to see and accept the idiocy of others. To those who have these habits, do what you can to correct them. Here's a recap:

1. Policies: Grow some balls and breathe, live, and enjoy your life through understanding your intuitions and unique situations rather than relying on policies. Open your eyes. You're missing out on life.

2. Trust - Mistrust: If you laughed at Melissa's "MISTRUSTS", you should also be laughing at those who "TRUST" pick up that much. Really . . .it amounts to a conversation.

3. And it's usually those who have no balls and are full of ^this type of mentality who only know "attack or defend" . . . "apologize or not apologize". Many of you guys do this all the time here and in real life:
Geeze, even the circus geek realizes that he's just a show. Why offer to defend or attack or not defend or not attack or apologize or not apologize to the guy who's simply pointing out the fact that you're creepy and weird? - I understand why so many of you do this but it seems none of you understand it. . . if you did, you wouldn't be doing it.

*For those who are actually interested in pick up, study Melissa's statement above as the cliches of mental midgets are great for comedic use in pick up. You'll want to dramatize these lines as much as possible. Otherwise, you will in fact sound like a mental midget.

Kasabi,

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? Based upon your tone, I highly doubt that you're actually trying to engage me in conversation or convince me to alter my opinions.

Alternatively you don't seem to want to change your opinions.

Have you even attempted to address any of the points levelled at you?

*crickets chirp*

most women DO NOT hate the pua's or any attempt at men to pick up their game. A lot of women welcome it, they are tired of being hit on by inept men.

this whole thread is self-hating nonsense.

did you actually read the thread or just the title?

The main reasons it creeps women out are:
- Manipulative techniques
- Women are objectified

Guys use jealousy, negs, disqualifiers, indirect techniques to get women. I'd hate it too if women did the same to me. I read the book "The Rules" and I hated it. I'd hate it if any woman tried to control me like that, women are not different.

Also a lot of guys in the PUA community objectify women. All they're bothered about is either getting laid as much as possible in any way they can (even through lying if they have to), or proving how amazing their game is to their PUA friends by seducing strippers/models/girls with boyfriends. They don't actually care about the women as people, they just see them as kind of measurement for how good they are at pick-up. They care about game more than they do women.

I read some lay report the other day, some guy was ringing every girl in his phonebook because he wanted to get laid. He said one girl didn't want to come see him because her grandad had just died and she was upset. He said it like "she didn't want to come because her grandad had just died and she was upset, HEHE". He found it funny that some girl didn't wanna fuck him because her grandad had just died? No sympathy whatsoever, he's just like "ah she doesn't wanna come shag me cos shes upset, HEHE". This is why women don't like it...

Fin,

In my post to Hobbit, I did answer some of the points that Kasabi raised, also based upon a prior conversation that I had with Hobbit.

Apart from those, however, I see little point in communicating with Kasabi at all. There is little to be gained from engaging with a person who begins with mockery and derision. There are only two reasons that an individual would attempt to engage another in such a manner, neither of which are conducive to good conversation. The first is an attempt to silence the other person, often by shaming them about the contents of their beliefs. The other involves the larger dynamics of the group as a whole--transforming one person or set beliefs into an object of mockery and ridicule can increase the aggressor's own status within the group, or encourage the group to coalesce in such a manner that the mocked individual and his/her beliefs is wholly excluded from the rest of the group.

Unless I were to roll over and play dead, anything that I say will be turned into an object of derision. Even if I do acquiesce and start fawning over the absolute truth behind Kasabi's words, I'm likely to still be slammed for converting too easily or some other such nonsense.

I know that both Hobbit and Chief think highly of Kasabi, so I figured that I'd give him a chance. Based on our interactions, however, I see no point in addressing either him or his objections.

@Melissa
If PU is as vague as you say, how can you hate it? You can certainly dislike some aspects of it, but I don't see logic behind this rule. Technically we all follow some kind of method. It can be: PU, romantic movies, magazines or personal experience.

No matter who you are with, his actions will be hugely affected by social conditioning. (and PU is also some kind of conditioning too. IMHO) Why learning how to be good with women from PU, is worse than learning the same thing(intentionally or not) from a romantic movie? IMO learning it intentionally is better since it shows some good qualities about that person.

1) Not afraid to take the action.
2)Go for what he wants
3)Smart enough to look in various places-not just where the majority is
4)Has guts to step out of "comfort zone".

Considering the amount of suffering, guys' inexperience caused to both parties, I believe, some aspects of PU should be spread in mainstream.

Most guys who start looking for Pu-material find it. Most of them don't even get out of their rooms and start applying whatever they've read. If person actually succeed at something, that deserves some respect.

P.S.-I don't like manipulative techniques either.

And you are certain about that?

That's a very big claim, do you happen to have any proof of this? This sounds alot more like something you'd want to believe.
I have seen kasabi go the same path he's going with you, and in the situations where the other guy sits listens and reflects before he/she responds. Things always turn for the sweeter.

Btw why are you looking at this as a battle where you'll look weak if you surrender, are you honestly that paranoid?

Also at the beginning your talking about how you have answered critisism raised by kasabi, on the other side you say its not worth it... which is it?

Fin,

It's a matter of logical deduction. Realistically, when you begin with mockery and derision, you're seeking to put the other person on the wrong foot. Most people get defensive and/or hostile when you address them in such a manner, so, logically, if someone actually cared about engaging someone else in a rational, reasoned conversation in which each party's opinions are treated fairly and with respect, you wouldn't begin in such a manner.

I have little interest in engaging in a conversation of the type other than the one that I listed above. I dislike shouting matches, and feel no need to engage in an insult war.

You are correct, however, there are other reasons to begin the matter that Kasabi did. One can be immature, or can for some reason need to soothe one's ego. Or, I suppose, someone could be incapable of rational conversation.

"I have seen kasabi go the same path he's going with you, and in the situations where the other guy sits listens and reflects before he/she responds. Things always turn for the sweeter. "

So if I play his game he'll be nice, but otherwise he'll stand there chucking his ball at my head until I cry "uncle?" No thanks.

"Also at the beginning your talking about how you have answered critisism raised by kasabi, on the other side you say its not worth it... which is it?"

What I answered was addressed to Hobbit, answering points that Hobbit had also earlier raised in chat. I have no problem with Hobbit--he's polite, thoughtful and respectful. Why wouldn't I respond to him?

Who says you need to treat the other persons opinions with respect? Giving stupid opinions respect on this forum often just gives them false credit making them more dangerous.

Truth is I and others will mock people on this forum, why?

Becuase alot of people on this forum are so deluded that the chances of single handedly changing them is low. The best you can do is mock them and hope a lesser deluded person notices the similarities between themselves and the mocked and snaps out of it.

Also.. its quite entertaining.
I can respect that, of course you'd have to really show that kasabi what is giving you is just pure insult and tottaly lacking of content.
It's not a case of playing his game, this isn't a game, it's not a war or a struggle or a shouting match. The reason you're getting mocked is because.. well to put it blunty, some of the reasoning you come out with is just so retarded that it's as funny as it is ironicly pathetic. When you really chew on some of the stuff you say it can be quite difficult to supress a giggle.
Ah, so you'll only take critisism when its coated in sugar? Fair enough.

LOL . . .
You don't find this at all comical do you? This is another commonality amongst waanabe pua twits. Your lives are walking displays of self mockery and yet, you can't see even the tiny bit of humor in you own lives. Is it any wonder why few people find you likable?

The following is addressed to the guys:

1. This is a pick up forum. The idea is to offer and gain assistance in pick up.

2. The title of the thread is "Why most women hate the idea of PUA's - the attitude!"

3. My initial response was that it's not so much the attitude as it is the character.
a. Many seem to be caught up in the belief that 'we're all special' in our own ways.
b. Many seem to think that we merely need to make a few adjustments in attitude.
c. The truth is that if you're a weird, dumb-ass creep who nobody likes, YOU ARE A weird dumb-ass creep that nobody likes.
d. A few attitude adjustments will not change anything.
e. If you don't want to be a weird, dumb-ass creep, you'll need to KILL the weird, dumb ass creep . . . and be re-born as a positive, progressive, open minded person. (Figuratively)

4. Too many members(usually newbies but not always) help reinforce bullshit. A guy will share his weird-ass creepy shit and instead of keeping him in check, most guys offer virtual high fives. - This is bad. (Of course sometimes it's an attempt at humor and comedy is a good thing.)
a. You do this because you connect with the bullshit artist. He's a guy. He's a wannabe pua. He speaks your language. This is defensive mechanism.

5. This Melissa character is in fact a weird, dumb ass creep who's proud to share her bullshit but the difference is that most of you don't connect with her. It's easy to laugh at her so go ahead. . . laugh, laugh, laugh. . but if you see any commonalities in her behavior and yours, you should think about it carefully. On top of the character faults already mentioned, she's provided us with a few more examples:

a. An asymmetrical level of respect. She says, "DEAL WITH IT!", yet asks to be engaged in conversation. She filters those those around her through ambiguous classifications and yet wants to be seen for 'who she is'. This is really no different than wondering why no girls want to hang with you after calling them, 'bitches' all day long.
b. Shouldering your bullshit on "Everybody" - - LOL . . . no, no . . . "Dumb ass creepy people" JUDGE based on these things. Think racists, misogynists, socio-economic snobs. . . you know, ehm . . . Hitler, Melissa, KKK, the guys with policies for hb_ . . .On the other hand, sane, well adjusted people instinctively gather information through these things to form an idea of the 'character'. . . then they judge the character by interacting with the him/her. This is a tiny, but BIG difference.
c. The whining: Just stop. This is sickening. Women often get few free passes at this because they can offset the negativity by sucking your cock and providing you with an endorphin rush. As guys, we have no excuse. If you choose to stand on the soap box and bite chicken heads all day long, people will point fingers and call you a geek.

This is actually a really good point - but does it not assume that the people are always acting and that it is never what they actually think? Creepy guys don't tend to be nice guys who have a creepy character, they are just plain creepy. (may be misunderstanding your point)
While this is a problem, it is an unfortunate side effect of what is effectively propaganda where guy a bullshits he is awesome with women and everyone should look up to him. guy b then does look up to guy a (because guy b is a lonely confused creep) and therefore starts to copy his behaviour.

Madals
p.s. *don't turn the debate into flaming bla bla bla....*