Short summary of relationship so far: Met a girl, we seemed to hit it off, she had to travel for a month... at the end of which she didn't get the job she thought, and may not be able to finish school, which may mean losing her student Visa and having to move out of the country. Because of that she "wasn't letting herself develop feelings for me." I tell her that if she can't let go and try to let that happen, we should just be friends.

Fine, she says we should just be friends.

For the next few weeks she initiates contact on Facebook, and our chats get pretty flirty. One night she's telling me how much kissing turns her on, another night telling me she doesn't mind me dating other girls while dating her, etc... only to then shut herself down by saying "of course I don't have sex with friends" or "we're not dating now though." Similar things... talking flirty, or talking as if we were dating then reminding me we aren't.

Other day she emails an invite to dinner on behalf of her mom, who is going back home soon, and of course we start the flirting thing again. At one point she jokes about making me feel special and then taking it away (we'd been joking about how special I was for her mom to invite me) and I reply that it feels like she's toying with me sometimes.

She writes back saying she didn't mean to be toying with me, and that she would watch how she talks and acts around me from now on.

I write back that all our conversations have been flirty, and I was thinking or hoping that she was having doubts about just being friends but didn't think she was intentionally toying with me. Then I say maybe I shouldn't come to the dinner since I may have wanted to come for the wrong reasons.

She replies back saying:
Landlord is invited too, but I doubt she talks about kissing and getting turned on with him.

I wish her command of English were better, that would probably make things more clear. Sounds pretty friend zonish to me... maybe I just need to force myself to accept that.

Possible replies:

"Do you talk to your landlord about how kissing turns you on? He may actually think you like him! "

"Hmm... in that case I'd feel better of the ratio were different. Maybe you could invite some of your single girlfriends? "

I guess if she's going to watch her actions from now on, I'll be less confused and more able to deal with her on a friendship basis... which could be good, since I like Asian girls and her friends are likely to also be Asian.

She's toying with you. Now that you called her out, you're not going to get that anymore. By bitching every step of the way, you made her start stripping things out of your flirty more than friends relationship. You fucked up right out the gate when you gave her an ultimatum. "Be attracted to me, or just be my friend." It didn't have to be a choice, you could've had both. What's really dumb is you put this on her because there's a chance she's going to move away. What happens if she ends up getting to stay? You could have just went with it and she'd open up to you in her own time. You forced things and that's why you have nothing now. Next time let things unfold naturally and continue to be an interesting guy that doesn't force her to make choices and doesn't freak out when she shows attraction.

No, I did that because she spent an hour and a half talking about how she didn't think she could date me because she didn't think there was much hope of her staying. 90% sure that if I hadn't said friends first, she would have...

Not sure that it really matters though.


EDIT: Besides which, it doesn't seem like the right way to go just letting her string me along or "pretending" to be friends. Isn't that being weak and needy, when an alpha or guy with options would just move on?

So yeah, I'm sticking with forcing her to define where we stand as the right decision. Even if it wasn't exactly the result I wanted.

Well... if you keep "forcing" girls to tell you where they stand, you're going to become really familiar with the friendzone. It's the comfortable choice where a girl doesn't have to risk rejection. Plus, what a girl says, what she feels, and what she means can all be different things. Point is, knowing where she stands doesn't get you anywhere, forcing her to define your relationship is always going to bleed out any chance for romance. It's awkward. Do you think it's particularly alpha to say, "Gee, you're driving me crazy with your teasing, I like it so much! Stop teasing and just tell me if you're playing me or not!" In the future, just assume that her flirting is a strong IOI, where she "stands" is irrelevant.

As for being strung along, there's a difference between that and a girl that is harmlessly flirting with you. It didn't sound like she was asking you for anything, she wasn't using you for rides, to pay for dinner and movies, to score pot for her. It's at those times that you are a tool that is being used and you're right, a PUA will not stand for it because he's not a chump. But a girl that's flirting with you? You're supposed to have fun with that, flirt back shamelessly, test her boundaries. Flirting is a very social tool that often is just for fun, but can sometimes create unexpected opportunities. You lost here because you got overly sensitive and overly attached when she was just being sexually social and then you demanded she stop doing it because you couldn't handle the heat.

Yeah, you're probably right... was in a bad state last week. Fighting a cold, working 16 hour days... anyway, never replied to her because I never really figured out how I wanted to reply.

So yesterday she posts a couple comments on my Facebook, then sends me an email just saying "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do." Followed by some quotes saying you should make a list of what you want to do then just do it.

I'm thinking she's rethinking breaking up with me, but I didn't want to get all serious and mopey again so I say "dare I ask what's on your list? "

Turns out she was thinking about me, but she knows about my issues with sex so she was thinking I shouldn't be nervous and should just do any girl I'm attracted to. (So is it good that she was thinking about me and sex, or bad that she was thinking about my problems with sex? )

My reply: "So is that something I should keep in mind next time I see you?"

Then point out that the saying would probably apply equally to her not dating me because of her job situation.

She just says I can always turn her words around, then goes into a big rant about her ex-landlord who caused her a lot of her current problems by giving her a bad reference, and even says she could have dated me more if it wasn't for that.

So yeah, I still have no handle on this.

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do." This girl is calling you out in the most obvious way she can without looking like a slut. That means "Go for it". She wants you to DO something.

you did the same mistake again.
You asked her: is this maybe a yes?

She's insecure about the situation and is not going to commit to future sexual actions, which girls just usually don't do.

You should have said: Ok, i'll keep that in mind for when I see u next time

You asking her: will u will u will u date me or y won't u date me? this puts her uder pressure, scares her and turns her off.

Just be patient and cool when she gives you a no, but whenever she gives you an opportunity, go for it and treat the maybe as a yes.

hope this works and it's not too late for you guys! (she's definitely making excuses and changing the topic btw)

Minsok: Notice how you went from "she's toying with me" to "she wants me to do something?"

This could very easily be more toying. I don't know, really... I'd certainly LIKE this to be a clear IOI but another friend of mine and my therapist both think she just enjoys the attention I've been giving her. Attention that she doesn't have to repay by committing to sex or a relationship. (The therapist actually thinks acting this way is why I end up in the friend zone so damn much... I'm basically the "safe" guy girls can be flirty with while knowing I won't press for it to go anywhere.)

So yeah, I can press now but as you said before trying to make her define the relationship will just make her back off. Especially if she is just going for the attention.

Maybe I just need to make the stand and cut her off if she doesn't want to date. I'd kind of like to be friends with her though, on the theory that she'd introduce me to her single friends who are also likely to be asian. I guess that's just not working though...


Femme85: Yep, that would have been a better line... damn, I really should know not to ask questions.

Oh yeah. Well, you made it sound like she's toying with you, so I agreed given the way you summarized it. If that line is what she told you, that's a clear go ahead. If you go for it and she freaks out, she has mental problems and you should NEVER talk to her again. That would be a total mindfuck of mixed signals and you don't need it.

Not surprisingly, Femme85 is spot on, every time you ask girl to spell something out for you, it destroys the attraction and makes the girl think, "Is this guy kind of dense, or what?" It's so much sexier to kiss the girl when you feel it's right instead of saying, "Hey, should I kiss you now or... not?" Really betrays a lack of confidence. Just go for it. Even if you found a girl that outright told you she wanted you to do her, by the time you get there she might change her mind. Don't wait for a girl to spell it out for you. Sometimes you might even surprise a girl who wasn't expecting a kiss (or to hook up), and that really excites her about you. You're the PUA, you decide whether this thing goes down or not.