The tittle tells everything itself. Social proof during clubgame is bullshit.

But first a bit on value providers

Before I start, let me say that this is for nightgame, not for social circles. Infact social proof can be key to create a comfort for the girl to be around you, and might get yourself hyped up in terms of social value. In this setting the girls fucks you with the purpose as keeping you as a value provider.

But during nightgame, girls do not need to fuck men to keep them as value provider. Why? because there is many men out there which they can attention whore around. Still, I fully disagree with the "gurus" that girls get hit on all the time (if they did, we wouldn't have all these AA threads here). But the girls get still hit on sometimes, and the guys who approached her invested so much energy, and emotions in approaching her that he will keep chasing her.

"I have struggle so much to approach her, now I better get her.."

Or..

"She didn't reject me, oh I still got a chance"

These are typical mindsets the chodes have. Which makes the chode chase women, and keep providing them attention and social value. It makes women feel attractive!

MY point is, during nightgame, girls don't have to fuck men to keep them as value providers...

Also. The social value girls earn by men in a social circle is much more important to her than the one she earns during nighttime (it's her social circle, it means much more for her than a night out, she is willing to invest more into it, like fuck a guy for example)

So recap.. Social proof is a good tool in social circles because:
_ It creates comfort for the girl to be around you
_ And amps up your social value (for those who still focus on that kind of game)

Now onto nightgame. Why social proof won't get you laid.

Don't get me wrong, social proof is prooved. It works. Social proof (pick up wise) is being seen with other girls.

So most guys who does focus on it (like I did a lot in my early days in the community) does bring girls to clubs as a form of pivots or by pawning the room by creating pivots on the spot.

The guys with all their girls giving them good vibes are believing they are attractive because of being social prooved.

And the answer is... and yes being seen with other chicks is attractive, but not really because of the social proof effect.

Think about yourself in a club right now.
What do you see?
Tons of people? Chaos? loud music?
Now let me ask you a question.
How do you want girls to see you in the fucking dark room with loud music and tons of people around?
For being honest I have even problems to spot my own friends in a club. So how do you want her to see/spot you? And actually focus on you? you are still a complete stranger.

In fact she won't even see you. Which means she will not notice you getting social prooved.
Why?
_ Too much chaos
_ Her level of focus isn't at is best (alohol etc...)
_ And why the hell should she care? She is rather caring about herself, on how she is perceived! (good obs by GUN)

So social proof isn't the factor here which is giving you laid.
Now this might sound paradoxal, but i had some good lays and nights out in field in early 2008. A lot of them (especially my reports from Croatia) contained a lot of social proof as the fact of why I got laid. I was wrong.
If made once an article on "why every method can get you laid" I made a point that many newbies don't know were their success comes from, so they reliate a theory with their succes which isn't always the reasons of why they got success. I will admit it I have failed here many times before. The social proof didn't give me laid.

But talking to many girls as I did in these reports (links to lr's below) did give me laid. Now you are might asking yourself, in which way?

Here are the answers:

1) When talking to many girls I get into a good social state. This have been discussed many times. Often discussed as social god mode. Being social won't you laid, being sexual will. I will explain more below.

When approaching girls and get shot down, you won't be much affraid anymore because you are now used to the emotional pain. This will make your balls grow up. This by itself is key in pick up. And getting balls will make you into a sexual monster when it comes to escalation! Because you are not affraid anymore. Which you know is a powerful tool in pick up.

If you approach girls and get a positive feedback like some random IOI's, it's even better. You will now get so congruent!
This will make your set even more receptive and make you even more congruent.A good success circle.
So congruence won't give you laid. But congruence will amp up the vibing of another current state you are in (hopefully sexual). For example if we look back at our current Croatia rapports (links at the end of the post) I didn't jack off for a while. I was in a good sexual state all the time.
And the key is, with congurence, your state/vibing become more congurent and more clear, which by the end means, more powerful. With powerful, I mean, affecting other people more. Affecting other is the only goal with state projection.

2) Male sexual state transfer.
A typical theory from a while ago from TylerDurden was the state transfer. For example if you approach a girl which had a guy escalating on her already, you take over from were he left her (state). If you make her horny and leave her, you leave her horny for the next smartass who actually got the balls to approach her. If a girl gets horny, she will do (sexually) the most available man right there when her horniness reaches a stade were she needs to get laid. So a good advice is, when you amp up a girl, don't leave her there, or in worst case someone is going to steal her from you. (no dumb tricks such as breaking rapport, only when you have a suuuuuper big shittest)

Why is this on topic?
Here is why. Studying my past experiences, I noticed that after approaching more than 5 girls, and escalating on them, I got horny. By being around them (not only being around but making EC, and getting some strong/sexual kino going on the girl I approached), when things used to go well, it made me horny and increased my sexual state.

This made me more attractive.

3) Most important factor.
I believed I was social prooved. I was believing I now had the power to go to what ever it was, go to the target I wanted and get her. It could be super gorgeous girl. This helped me removing all the typical newbie issues such as the madonna whore complexe (at that time)
.
I also believed that with social proof, I was attractive for the whole room, and that I had many opportunitys and many girls available right there for me.

So what happened in that case?
Well I was believing this: "Oh I can just escalate god damn hard on her, if it fucks up, I can just go to the next one"

You know what? I got more balls to escalate, and it rarely failed, because my state was high and very congruent.

The problem most guys have is not because they are escalating too much, but because they are escalating not enought.

This is key.

Social proof affects your state, and this is what makes you attractive. Not the fact of being seen with girls, because the girls won't see you at all in the chaotic club.

Now finally let me add that I wrote that in 90% that was the case. In the other 10 % social proof, being seen with girls will make you attractive. But why talk much about it, cause it won't hurt you at all by being seen with other girls. As long as they don't get jalouse and cockblock your target or comes in when you are generating sexual tension and breaking it completly.

But it's rare.

It's rare when she even pay attention to you at all. But never say never. Everything is possible. Please remember i mentioned clubgame, as going in clubs, not small bars. These can be a different setting.

But I am focusing on what happens most of the time. This is why I wrote this post.

Recap: "Your social proof doesn't affect her, but yourself"

By the way, these are very good examples of my lr's of were I thought I got laid due to social proof even if it was a compeltly different reason:

http://tinyurl.com/yg3feu9

http://tinyurl.com/ygcztzq

(these are also good lr's if you wanna read stuff from my early days, it has evolved pretty much lol)

Hope you enjoyed

Questions? Comments?

-Teveaii!

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Ok i read something like the first quarter of this and i couldn't go further. Every other sentence is: "social proof is prooooven (when it's "proven") but it does not mean anything"


Social proof is incredibly important on night game. It isn't important because the girl want's to up her social status in the club by being with you. It is because you are everybody's friend there and she wants to know who you are.

When I go to clubs, I talk to whoever I want. I usually end up knowing a bartender or door guy or a shot girl and that's always a good thing. When you walk into a place and someone that works there, who is a major focal point in the room, diverts his attention to YOU, other people in the room will notice. Social Proof.

When there are a group of people at the club and you start talking to them and get them laughing the whole time, you're showing to the whole room that you're a fun guy to be around. Social Proof.

If you show up with your friends and cut off all the girls you're not attracted to, it shows every HB8-10 in the room that you're judgemental and you only came in for one reason. Whether this is negative or positive is up to you. I personally talk to everyone and create this whole vibe about me that I'm just a fun guy to talk to. Either way: Social Proof

If you walk out on the dance floor and don't know anybody and start grinding up against a girl and she blows you off. Every girl on the floor can see this, and it shows you came out with nobody to dance with. Social Proof

Social proof means everything in night game. It can make or break you. No matter what you do, you display your social proof. You can decide whether or not you want it to be positive social proof or negative social proof.

NO most girls aren't going to fuck you because of your social proof, unless you have celebrity friends, or you can get your social value high enough. When celebs walk into a club, everybody knows who they are and because of their social value the girls want to fuck them.

Sorry TVA, but grammatical errors aside, your POST is bullshit. Social Proof is not.

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I only had to read half of this to know that you were pitching heat. First of all, your definition of "social proof," is incorrect. What you are talking about is "preselection," (something that also works in club game, just differently than social proof).

Social proof is being seen with people, showing "I have friends, and these people are them," whether those people are actually your friends or not. And yes, sometimes social proof is a matter of being seen with large groups of people while you move through the club, but this is much less effective than the social proof provided by wingmen who enter your set, or friends who touch-and-go while you're in the set (Oh, hey man, I was looking for Isha, you seen her around? Yeah, she went that way.)

What social proof does is a) turn off the triggers in her head saying "This is just some creepy dude hanging out with us because he has no other friends," and b) creates the impression that you are a popular man, leading her to become intrigued as to the qualities in you that lead to such a status. While you can sarge a club without social proof, it is _far_ more difficult.

Preselection, the thing you're _actually_ talking about, is also important and is brought forth in much the same way.You prove that you know women, that women will be seen with you, and that women like and have had sexual relations with you. You can show preselection by having women touch-and-go while you're in set, by having a pivot with you in the set, or by telling stories that include women you know. The importance of preselection cannot be overstated: if other women have slept with you, if other women like you, then you must have qualities those other women have found attractive. Those other women have pre-tested you for creepy, and the test results came back negative. This lets her skip entire chunks of her self-protective habits, allowing your interaction to become better, faster.

Useless? I think not.

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You should read the whole, because at the end i write about why I got laid by getting good vibes from many girls, which gives this post a meaning lol.
It's definatly not a very important tool. Who claims it?

If it was very important, then i could get laid with only social proof? (if i get social proofed at all, as I claim in my post, that I won't).

A female will not go for a social prooved man. As we all know females goes for men which can provide them something.

Like a money provider, emotion provider... ETC.

With social proof , you earn social value (mystery wrote about entourage game in 2006). With social value, you attract women due to your value, because she perceives you as a high value male, which can provide her high value.

But following maslows hierarchy of needs, social value comes as the 3rd most important need, or 4th. Now the hierachy of needs from maslow isn't 100% accurate, but it kind of make sense. For this reason, social value is for from being important in order to get laid.

For example, the best guys into pu are the one able to go out alone and pull a chick when they feel for it.

Infact it's all about vibing. Social proof, when it works (as when they see you in the club being social prooved, which I said in my post is rarely the case, because of the chaos level, and the fact that girls doesn't care) is far from being the key to a good pick up.

Kongruens... tensions... vibing is the key to pick up.


This is good to be socially open, but now this doesn't make a girl horny. Which will get you a few smiles from girls but not laid.

In order to have sex with a girl, as I mean goood sex (mutual seduction), it should come from mutual arousement and not social value.
Getting laid by social value, is like paying a hooker, she does it just because of the value you provide to her, and not the actual seductive vibe between you both.

I hold seminar in sexology, if you wanna disagree, please come with facts from sexologists.

When there are a group of people at the club and you start talking to them and get them laughing the whole time, you're showing to the whole room that you're a fun guy to be around. Social Proof.

Now I said social proof will give you social proof, and might have positive effects, but here is why i said it's bullcrap:
1) Girls goes out to get attention only, because that's how they satisfie their ego's
This means she really cares how she is perceived and her main focus is on herself, not you.
2) Clubs are too chaotic , she maybe won't even spot you.

I rarely go out sarging with friends. I mostly go out alone. I only came for one reason, and I am congruent about it, and why shouldn't girls like it? Girls like sex, infact, i make them perceive me as a sexual being, which will make them think of me as a sex provider. Girls likes sex aswell, just get rid of their ASD.

Now another fact is, if you talk to many people, without actually wanting to talk to them, but you are doing it just in order to get social proof, then you sarging is not a passion, but a must for you. A very bad bad frame.
Sarging is fun, it feels good. Seduction is not something you should do to count lays, but pure physical pleasure.
No, this is not true. I go out alone. I get in state (infield meditation), and I can approach a girl and get a make out pretty quickly without social proof. But this deserves an own post, because it's a too big topic to cover. But I will highly disagree with you on this one.

A calibrated sexual approach on the dancefloor and being able to create a deep sexual tension, or having calibrated (in order to trigger less asd as possible) and efficient (for triggering horniness quickly, rmeember arousal= Big compliance) kino escalation skills is enought for the dancefloor.

The stater also plays a role.


Disagree. It's not required in order to get laid. I am not gunwitch fan, but he already made this discussion in 2006/2007.

I infact like to go under the radar, approach and stay mysterious. If she can reliate me with a sex fantasy (as the one having sex with a pure stranger), i am more closely to win then being a superstar in the club.
And they so in order to take the social value of the celeb. He is then the social value provider.

But this pretty much crash with your last statement.
Don't count gramatical erros, english is my third language.

But your points were mostly discribing how social proof works. Sorry man, I know that, i learned about it in end of 2006.

But you didn't disagree with my points on why the social proof couldn't be create, which i think comes from that you havent read the whole thread.

Anyway thanks for your participation.

Teveai

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correct. Social proof will only give you a few smiles ETC.

BUT, my main point is that social proof, as theory create attraction (based on your social value)

But the problem is that it can't be created without showing it, and affect people around you. In order to project social proof you need to be seen with social proof.
My post starts of with pointers of why it's hard to be seen, and perceived highly social prooved.

Recap:
Too much chaos..
Girls doesn't care about you, but themselve...
Dark room..
Alcohol (lack of focus)

ETC.

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Reading the full post would help a lot to understand my points.

The definition of social proof is use is the marketting definition (i go to a marketting school). I Really liked Robert Cialdinis definition.

Social proof is being seen with people, showing "I have friends, and these people are them," whether those people are actually your friends or not. And yes, sometimes social proof is a matter of being seen with large groups of people while you move through the club, but this is much less effective than the social proof provided by wingmen who enter your set, or friends who touch-and-go while you're in the set (Oh, hey man, I was looking for Isha, you seen her around? Yeah, she went that way.)

Wingmen? they don't social proof you, they cockblock you.
Article from my friend sleazy: http://www.cliffslist.com/letter/aaron- ... ut-trouble

I can't see how the fact of having cool friends around you will help you much getting laid. In fact it won't matter much. I can see how having uncool friends might be a problem, but having cool ones won't help much. This is like the populare guys in college who are still virgin.
"This is just some creepy dude hanging out with us because he has no other friends,"

Let me reframe it...

I got complimented by "having balls enought to go out alone"

So i am not sure this is always negative.

Sarging without social proof isn't hard, but sarging in a bad state is.
Social proof is being seen people which gives you value (for example girls). Social proof makes you pre-selected (toecutte/mystery, 2005/2006)
Pre-selection is not being seen with other girls. Being seen with other girls will make you pre-selected (if again following my post won't happen because you wn't get that attention... lol).

Pre-selected means being selected by a girl without fully approaching her.

A hover and pAImAI (forced AI) can create pre-selection.

Eye flirting before approaching also do it.

Stereotyping will also pre-select you (if you are the stereotype a girl seeks, remember different kind of girl seeks different stereotypes of men) same thing for biological attraction.

Social proof (at least being seen at all from your target) will make you pre-selected.

You wrote following:
First what are the chances the girls sees you getting touched by the girl? What are the chances she even bother look at it?

A pivot, i can agree, but pivots have disadvantages aswell. They can break the tension, and can be cockblocking you as much a wing.

Also going around with pivots or pawns (pivots made on the spot) can also make you perceived as non-available for women. Which is a bad thing. Be available, you want her, but you don't need her.

Talking about your girls, can work, i do agree, but i can also make you sound try hard (needy) which will kills all attraction.
Sure

Thanks for your contribution.

As I said in theory, social proof works.
But the problem is that chances for being seen at all, are small. So small chances you will be seen getting social prooved.

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Bad English hurts my brain. >.<

If your wingmen are cock-blocking you, you have bad wingmen. ^_^

Your definitions for concepts like "social proof" and "pre-selection" are not the common definitions in the community. This makes communication about the concepts difficult, so for the sake of conversation, I'm going to define them here.

Social Proof: the concept that when you are seen as accepted by a group, your social status is raised in the eyes of women in the near vicinity.

Pre-selection: The communication of the PUA’s value based on his ability to provide evidence of already having women in his life and choosing to be by his side.

[This is not up for debate; you can win any argument you like by changing the definition of terms. I could prove to you that Justin Timberlake lives in my kitchen, so long as you're willing to accept that "Justin Timberlake" actually translates to "my pet bird."]

With these definitions in mind, let's take a look at Social Proof in a theoretical vs. practical way. Theoretically, Social Proof looks like a side effect of interacting with people throughout the club, that you will be seen as a valuable person when you are talking to bartenders, bouncers, your own friends, other people's friends, etc. Practically, this is usually not how it works. How one attains Social Proof while in an interaction is through, as I said before, touch-and-go interactions with your friends, pivots, and other people you've spoken to in the bar that night. When I say "touch-and-go," I mean this: A person enters your set very briefly to ask you a question, tell you something important, or otherwise indicate that he or she knows you, accepts you, and considers you important enough to consult on the matter. This is a practice I teach to my students, and I use it in sets all the time. When I walk past a student or one of my wingmen, I will ask if they have seen a young lady of our acquaintance. The usual answer is "I think I saw her over that way a while ago," which is to say "You have done your job, now please go away." This provides Social Proof to the person I have asked (and a small amount of preselection, because I am looking for a female acquaintance of ours), raising his value _immediately_ in the set. You can often watch a distinct change in the target's body language prior to and after the pick-up artist has been Socially Proofed.

The chances that a girl will see you "get touched" in this manner are pretty high. If a girl walks into your set and asks if you've seen another female acquaintance, you gain pre-selection value _and_ social proof.

What I think is a more valid point than "Social Proof doesn't work in a club situation," would be "People should learn how to gain social proof in more effective ways when in a club environment." Social Proof creates immediate value. Value gets you laid.

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I don't think I've ever gotten laid without the aforementioned mindset in place. Have you? ^_^

I will qualify the offending statement by saying this: Value and well-calibrated escalation get you laid. Better?

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You Wrote
''Don't get me wrong, social proof is prooved. It works. Social proof (pick up wise) is being seen with other girls''

It seems like you're getting Social Proof and Pre-Selection mixed up.
They're not the same, 2 different things (though similar in ways).
Social proof will show that must be a safe, fun and interesting guy to have different people talking to you and giving you their attention.
It's kind of ironic really, because for 'clubgame' and other social setting where people come together, these are exactly the places and time when social proof has it's strongest effect. Though yes you're right about, just because you seem to know alot of people, doesn't make her want to jump into bed with you. But it helps and increases your chances of her pulling her and taking things further.
Pre-Selection is, well exactly what it says on the tin. Being Pre-selected or appearing to be pre-selected by other girls. So that would be 'being seen with other girls'.

There is a reason why our little "game" is called a GAME. Couple of things happen when you begin messing around with absolutes in our GAME:

1. It's no longer a game.

Well . . . I suppose a lot of things happen when you create rigid social rules for yourself but I think the above pretty much explains it all.

First it's not called game, it's called Seduction/Pick up.
Game is a tittle of a book.

Game = book (neil strauss)

Pick up = art of picking up women (old ASF)

So you are claiming, removing social proof from a someones game (if you like that term) , is like removing the most important aspect of it?

Are you claiming social proof is the/a pillard of pick up? Or a very important aspect of it?

I can agree social proof can be useful (as claimed in my OP, the theoritical part of it is correct, but technically harder, due to the fact that noone cares about who is around you in a club), but claiming social proof as being required, or an absolute, is maybe the worst I have heard.

LOL

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Have you guys ever seens all the populare guys at school?
High schools, college, who got girls all around them all the time...

Who get smiles...

Who you believe gets laid a lot from being populare...


Till you discover they are virgins...

Then you realize... that this concept is overrated.

It's also not rare to see close-to-virgins teaching in this community. Sadly they get major respect. (Dream? Mehow anyone?)

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Has the terminologies changed since 2006?
Yes...

But following classic, (not revolutionary 2008 concepts...) pick up terminologies, social proof means: Being seen with people in order to raise your social value/ being perceived higher value. Social proof also creates safety feeling in people, since they can see people having a good time around you.

This is discribed by Robert Cialdini in depth in his books. Please read some of them.

Pre-selected, means, being selected by the girl, or having high amounts of compliance and attraction, before you even open the chick.

Social proof creates pre-selection.

Couldn't agree more. I can see the effect of it, I have also experienced it a lot. But personally the effect is overrated. This is far from an important concept into pick up.

All I know is that it sells very well.
.

It surely does have a strong effect, but only if, as you said later on, is seen, or if you get any attention. some might advice peacocking, but looking like a weirdo, without it fitting your personality (such as Mystery) is just fucking retarded.

But I disagree with social proof having it's strongest effects in clubgame. I do believe social proof has it strongest effects in social circle game. And I highly recommend social circles gamers to focus on that topic.

Because:
_Bigger changes to get the attention (heck you know the persons)
_ Has stronger effects.


Sure, but the biggest issues are that you won't be seen at at all-
Being seen with many girls also have it's downside.

Here are they:
_ Personally, talking with a girl i am not really attracted to just ruin my state
_ You can seem try hard, with no standards

But isn't that of a biggie.

Thanks for your participation.

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I'll find the source in a moment, but TVA Oslo is onto this, 5% of women say that an attractive feature is lots of friends.

Where as things like, masculinity, willingness to emote, and the ability to communicate with more than just words out rank that 5-6 fold.


More on top of that, why do you need to be surrounded by people to prove that you are a fun and interesting person. That's something that should be evident just talking to you.

Looking for ways to show her how fun and interesting you are is like showing someone you modelling contract in order to prove that you are good looking.

If you are fun, interesting and confident in social situations that will shine through without the need for wandering around with an entourage.

Edit: The article has been taken down

Social proof being important and providing value does not translate to social proof being "attractive." Social proof is not a matter of attractive any more than a false time constraint is a matter of attractive.

Instead, they cater to a different need in the course of an interaction; they're release valves for her niggling worries that you are, in fact, a creep. A false time constraint releases the fear that you will be sticking around longer than she is comfortable with because you have nothing better to do than bother her. Social proof releases the fear that she is talking to a loser with no friends, while providing a peripheral value boost.

And while you can certainly take FTCs and Social Proof out of your game-plan for an interaction with only a moderate increase in difficulty pulling your target, that hardly makes the techniques useless. You can do that with most concepts in pick-up. If you took out everything except Approaching and Escalation, you'd still do alright. It'll be harder by an order of magnitude, but you'll do alright.

I'd rather keep all the weapons available to me in my arsenal and make things as easy for myself as possible, thanks. I'm lazy that way.

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