Natural Game vs Routine Game

I'm sure this is an debate which has been going on for quite some time, though for myself I saw it erupt last night on our forum's lovely chat system, where a member was professing his "firm belief" that using routines and canned material is stupid, unhelpful, and ultimately detrimental to the individual as well as making them appear socially awkward. His suggestion, then, was to present people with a "natural" game from the beginning, supposedly superior than all other routine-based game systems which exist. I take issue with a number of these points.

When I began learning pickup I found that using routines and canned openers were very helpful, and that without them I wouldn't have had the confidence built up like I do now to the point where I don't need to rely on the canned material. The gentlemen I was speaking with last night argued that pick up is like building a house (why is it that no one can explain pick up simply, why must it always be some clever analogy?) He said routines and lines are like walls of the house, but why would you give this to someone without giving them the proper foundation and grounding first (confidence, natural game, etc)? Now, I really want to point out the major problem with this analogy....from my experience and the collective experiences of the literal hundreds of PUAs I have spoken with, these lines and routines BUILD confidence inside you because you get success via their tried and tested methods. Once this confidence and sociability is instilled within you, you can move away from the material. If I had to re-explain this analogy, it would be that you first need to go to the store to buy the foundation, examine which ones were sufficient for you, try them out etc. You would also purchase the building equipment (including walls). Finally, you would lay the foundation and begin to build. Consider the store to be the area of "canned" material, you gain confidence and sociability from that place, and using the confidence you have built up as well as the social network you have built up, you can then build your house based on the skills you have gathered with the help of "canned" material.

Unfortunately, I didn't get much of a chance to explain this last night as it was evident what this other guy was really after. He began to argue that "natural" game was far superior than routine based game [on a side note, I love it when AFCs or rAFCs come to these amazing realizations which we are all, apparently, too clueless to see] and that no real PUA would use them. You may have noticed that throughout this post I have put the word natural within quotation marks. This is because no one is a natural, literally, no one. We are all shaped by our experiences, and if you have come to this forum you have learned something and have utilized it (whether or not you realize it consciously). If you had to learn to be successful with women, you are not a natural. Why is it so important that we all "strive" to be naturals? Fuck that. You are here and are reading this because you entered the community with a goal; be it to get laid, get a girlfriend, bang that hot secretary in the red dress, whatever. Whatever method your using, if it is wielding results, then it is good game. Why worry about what technique to use when we can't even skate on the ice yet? It's stupid to see AFCs or what have you argue about which version of game is better, when clearly they are not wielding the results they want.

Keep it cool guys, and wield results.
Only later you are getting results should you worry about if your double-axle-jump is a little crooked...


- Memento

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Diploma in Clinical Hypnosis -- GHR & NHS

I would like to say that I completely agree with everything that you had to say. When I came to this forum for the first time I didn't have much knowledge of what "natural" game was. And many people on this forum, seemed to belive that routines were all wrong and that it can in fact "make you worse with girls". I was shocked, I didnt know what to do. I mean I spent days reading and understanding Mystery's book, just to be told that its going to make me worse with girls? WTF?

Then I read some post in the Natural Game area of the forum, and realised these are people who have tried variouse things and have come to realise that you don't always need material.

And they only came to this realization after they have had so much experince in the filed. In that sense How can anyone expect an AFC or a rAFC to get straight into the came and become a natural? The reson they came to this forum in the first place was because what they were doing "naturally" was not working for them - they needed to see succes, they needed to be shown that girls do like them. Canned material gives you the confindence to become a natural.

Its not enough for someone to tell an AFC - be confident or work on your inner game. Dont you think he's been told that a million times before. He needs something he can base his confidence on, and canned material will give him that something.

I belive that canned material is just as important as "natural" game.
Anywho, thanks for setting this straight, your post really cleared up some confusion, its good to know there is atleast some people who seem to be thinking along the same lines as me.

Spot on mate,

The fact that i got into the Game with its rules and prinicples opened me up to the possibility that maybee I didnt need to to follow all the steps, maybee skip one, do this or that a little earlier.

Like Phil Jackson the lakers coach said; we run systems and sets, but we only have them so that the players can break out of it, do their own thing, go against the flow, THATS what wins games!

i just dont see how bad is canned material. everyone including the naturals, use canned material. for example, a girl might always talk about how many guys trying to get her in some place some time, and how she played around with them. this is a canned material, people use them everyday. even tribes have their own story about their past. so i don't see why canned material is bad at all. just because the girl feel tricked and bitch about how a loser we look like using mystery/style's famous routine/opener, we shouldnt feel such need to switch to the total natural way of PUA, especially people who are starting out.

in my opinion canned material that is proven to work is a good ground to begin on as a newbie. This should go hand in hand with the mindset that any rejection isn't a personal rejection, you could've got better results if you improved tonality, body language or anything that's subconscious.

Later on when you get decent success you'll automaticly develop a sense of confidence.

Neither canned lines or natural is a bad way to start at.
I think the mindset that goes with them is far more important than anything.

My thoughts:

Canned material at the start is good for building confidence.

I had no idea how to start conversations with girls I didn't know; canned stuff gives me a way in and I use myself to do the rest.

You can't be natural from the start if you're not already a natural.

You're already learning how to be a natural - so it doesn't mean you're a natural.


AFCs turned PUAs should start with canned material.

Gives confidence until you have enough experience to experiment with other lines yourself. In the past few weeks I've used a few canned stuff and a few of my own lines, but the canned stuff I read made me feel a lot more comfortable.

Causes and Symptoms my friend. The issue isn't the lines those guys are saying, it's whats going on inside. Personally I could care less if someone is congruently all about the canned lines, knock yourself out. There was a study done many many years ago that stated that the words themselves were only accountable for roughly 5% of the total message... the other 95% was the tone, the pitch, the vibe, the expressions, etc etc etc.

So why are we trying to change by changing one of the least important parts, then hoping that will have such a drastic effect on our confidence that everything else will change as a consequence?

What we need to do is create confidence. Now people lately have been mistakenly thinking that I advocate not getting any experience... thats ridiculous. You must have experience but why not make your experiences more valuable? Our beliefs govern our confidence, and our beliefs are governed by our experiences that is true... however thats also incomplete.

Confidence is created like this:

experience -> perception of experience -> application to belief system -> effect on confidence.

By modifying your belief systems in a positive way, and then altering your perceptions to align with those, it is possible to pull a 180 in regards to your confidence and life.

Thats my advocation... take the quicker, easier and more effective path.

In short, it is all about how far you have come.

Agreed with Ezo,

It's all about how far you are in your personal experiment.

One who is socially awkward and desperately looking for a way to break the ice might find routines easy to use and dispatch during the heat of the moment. This provides guys with the needed tools to engage in constant social repetition which in turn allows them to gain more comfort and self confidence.

As one progresses and learns things about themselves and about social dynamics and interaction, one can then shed their routines and canned lines and start going out knowing that their person is enough to attract a women. Or not.

It's all a means to the same end in this case. i firmly believe that, in the end, the PUA learns the same lesson. Canned Material is just step one, not all guys have to start at this level.

I don't know if that made sense. i am tired and work is almost over. I have to drag myself into the gym...ugh.

I think that sums it up for me. When I started the canned material and routines were very helpful for me to gain confidence! While at the same time getting me accustom to everything else there is to know about being in field: Body Language, Group Dynamics, Good Conversation Skills, etc. I could stack and stack routines and deliver them without problem as if I created them.

Now that I am further along I hardly ever go back to those things. I have the confidence to open with some kino and be very direct and very sexual! However, I wouldn't have starting pushing my limits with what I could say and get away with if I wasn't comfortable out there first.

Good Post & Good Responses.

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