This is my first post and im incredibly new to all this, having only read a list of acronyms, and 3/4 threads (in full - I even took some notes..) covering the basics, so apologies if I misuse any of the lingo I shall stick to plain english to make things easier (sorry for the length)...

How I Ended Up Here:

So, I met HB8 for a (prearranged) coffee, afterwards, exchanged text messages for couple days (jokes/laughs/banter), then I called her (after setting up the call with some light humor)

We get talking about all kinda stuff, I get the impression she enjoyed the call and my company as although she rejected my attempt at Day2, she made it clear "definitely" after New Year.

No problems right? Things are ok? Wrong.

During the conversation, she spoke for around 3 minutes solid (I didnt say a word expect "oh right" "cool" "sounds like a good read" as she told me all about this book shes reading called "The Game", which is all about... well you know what.

So now, I find myself in the dilema, do I remain ignorant? and feel like shes got the upper hand around our interactions? hope my "natural" abilities keep my head above water?

Or, do I read "The Game" (which I have already ordered and arrives tomorrow). And try to pick up the basics so I can catch on when she starts to neg me/push-pull etc (which she undoubtedly will right?) I kinda think she already has, because for the first time in 4 years, I left the "date" feeling that I was the one who needed to text her to say thanks, despite the fact, I travelled an hour to see her, naturally picked up the tab, and have bought her some flowers for christmas (I hope shes not on this forum, there goes the surprise!).

I am not suggesting that I try and 'out game' her, but if I feel "neged" I could simply say "are you neging me?" which would make her think twice from the on?

ps, I read a thread around buying gifts early, however I have had some flowers sent to her work Christmas Eve as she has to work (and she wasnt happy), with a typical me style joke (without the answer) attached as the note, no signature its from me. But we have been speaking for 6+months, Im confident shes interested <somewhat> and confident she knows I am. If it backfires i.e. she thinks its too much/weird, I have a backup, that is saying (truthfully) that I worked for a floral decor company to some of the best hotels in the city of London, and he owes me a favour and he said he'd put something special together - again, entirely truthful. Your views on whether thats enough to ease any tension?

Thanks in advance - I have a thick skin and constructive criticism is always appreciated

hahahaha holy shit u got yourself into a very interesting situation. personally i would read the game just cause it is a bad ass book. it helps you in every social aspect of life, not just wemon. read and you will see.

good luck man

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Who is the 5th of the Final Five?

You're being way way way too nice. You just started seeing her, yet you're buying her flowers and picking up the tab after driving an hour to see her. Now the one good thing about this, is that because she's reading The Game, you're doing everything opposite of what it says to do, so she won't have any clue that you're looking into this stuff, lol. The bad thing is that if you keep it up, you're going to be such a push over that you won't be making it interesting and exciting for her.

Honestly, I'm suggesting people don't read that book until they've been working on improving themselves for at least 6 months. That book is written by a guy that took his life and tweaked it in order to make himself sound a whole lot better than he really is (no offense to the guy, I mean anyone writing an autobiography does this) and skews how many of the events really occured. No one pays attention to the fact that everyone in that book is completely off the fucking wall extremists and they all end up worse off than they started. They're all fucked up and they end up even MORE fucked up!

Like I say, I don't hate the guy, I just think people glamourize that shit way too much. I loved the book, but only because I took everything with not just a grain, but a shaker full of salt!

The thing that I can say that book did to me negatively was accept the idea of using all this pickup artist terminology and dehumanizing women in order to get better at getting with them. If you read it, it is not only possible, but quite likely that it will do the same to you and I don't advise it. Women who read that book either say they like it, or they hate it, there is no in-between. If she likes it, then she probably took note of the fact that most of those people are completely fucked up and just appreciated the fact that there are guys that really want to learn how to be better with women; that's usually what girls like about that book because not enough guys are interested in honestly improving.

I suggest you check out my "Worthwhile Threads" thread stickied here in the newbie section. Check out the interviews with Johnny Soporno and Sean Messenger, as well as the thread Sean posted called "The Game is a Lie", it's quite good.

I DON'T suggest you read the book, because it will damage you. I DON'T suggest you start pointing out when she is doing certain "pickup techniques" on you because that will damage your chances of a relationship unless you do it in a really playful joking manner and only once or twice ever.

Now if you're really looking to improve your skill with women, then you might look into a workshop with one of the respected members of the community. There's not a lot of them that I'd recommend personally because I know a lot of them still teach the traditional stuff that is glamourized by The Game. The ones I DO recommend are Sean Messenger, Johnny Soporno (both good friends of mine), Adam Lyons is great and I heard Sinn is fighting for the Light side, although I haven't spoken with him personally, so I can only give my friends' approval. Now if you're looking for a respected and cheap course that comes recommended from a lot of the top members of this forum, as well as Sean, Johnny and some other coaches, then I am considered to be pretty much the cheapest accredited coach around. I'm planning on making a trip over to Europe in May (you did say London, right? unless that's London Ontario, in which case I'm in Toronto ).

Until you decide whether you are interested in a workshop though, I recommend continuing to look around on the forum because you'll learn a LOT just from reading and writing on here! Welcome to the board!

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

I would use it an oppurtunity, I have read Neil's book, its FINE to have that in common, #1 why is she reading it ask her, the next question will be why have you read it? Well why? Some guys just want to fuck, NOT me. It may allow you to express that you also are familir with it because you knew you were a good person w/ a good mind, but just had trouble finding others to learn your mind with you.... ect.."

Hide it? Why, yes you can call it a game, but its really more than that, and Neil even like me is still a student. Direct is not always so bad even in your shoes.

Thanks for the fast response,

Re: Rye Lee,

London England yup. I am "just being myself" I am very successful and even more fortunate with what I have, and I actually get huge kicks out of being able to spoil people (My kids are going to grow up little brats, guaranteed).

I do, fully appreciate your point, "push over", this comes down to perceived value? I can see how things will go that way. But interesting and exciting, I can do (London = easy).

My first stop will be checking out your "Worthwhile Threads" but I remain tempted to reading the book whilst borrowing whats left in your salt box.

A workshop might be a good idea, I can talk to a HB until the cows come home, I struggle incredibly however with kino, (although im desperate to try some of the techniques on here), its just that initial, once im through that barrier im fine... Basically, my nerves are not in the approach they are in the physical contact! Im out for dinner with a very old friend (HB6) tonight, I may have some "results" to post, but im only going to see her reactions to low level incidental/overt stuff - which is where i need WORK.

Thankyou for the warm welcome, and detailed post, much appreciated.

Re: DB2012

I am the same, I need to be worked hard to appreciate a reward. And that goes with everything in my life, if its not hard work, then I didnt put in max effort, and if I didnt put in max effort, the rewards are not as big as they should of been, what I mean is, simply getting laid is zzz for me, I need to have MORE fun than that, the "complete package" please.

"Direct is not always so bad even in your shoes" - are you able to elaborate? I am not sure how to interpret this...

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So, 2 of 3 say read the book - however the length of Rye Lee's post contains more individuals reasons not to...

Can anyone else add to bring out a clear winner?

Like I say man, I think the book is a decent read, just not right off the bat. If you do decide to read it right away, don't be fooled by the way they make everything sound cool. Fucking tons of random women won't make you happy in life and that's just a simple truth. Being a happy person on the other hand will bring all the women that you desire, whether that's 1 or 5,000.

Based upon what you say your problem is, you'd really enjoy my new workshop I'm doing. It's called Advanced Concepts: The Art of Flirting and deals with flirting using your voice and body in a lot of detail. Check out these threads for more info:

rye-lee-pua-north-american-tour-vt34823.html

rye-lees-coming-to-europe-vt32596.html

The first is a link to the thread for my North American tour, which gives a good explaination of what happens at the workshop and the second link is my European tour, with more details on the workshop schedule and everything. Cheers!

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Well, why not have her tell you more about the book and start reading it. Appear to be suspicious about it and the techniques it presents. You can go on discussing it together and see it from the moral point of view (it does say that the only way to win the game is to leave the game).

Be sure to point out some of the more interesting parts in the book like Rye Lee says, sleeping with tons of women does not make you happy. And say that the author has a wierd perspective etc etc... She has probably not thought of that so you will seem inteligent. Just do not believe that the MM presented in the Game is the only technique that works. Style just makes it sound like that...

Well, after reading over the forums (I've never seen forums with such a high amount of quality information - good job) I found a link to "DiCarlo's Kino Escalation Ladder",

I was out lastnight with a very old friend, with whom I had many nights out where I think neither of us ever understood if it was a date or not (so nothing happened, when it probably should)

Weve both gone to uni since, (4 years now) and meet maybe 2/3 times a year, anyhow, I tried some of the Class 1 and 2 Incidental/Overt kino techniques with absolute great success, and I know for fact that shes not the "touchy feely" type

Thanks for all the tips - Im certainly intrigued - Not sure if I can afford you though Rye Lee - Do you offer student discounts?

I do! PM me and we can talk about it.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye