I'm reposting this as a new thread and I'm adding important stuff on routines:
Haha... I loved this. Jurupa - you've been on this forum for THREE years. You made more than 2000 posts.

You suffer from the same "problem" that most gurus and advanced players suffer from - you forgot how much you sucked at this when you started and you are oblivious to the fact that you have internalized so much material, that by now it all seems natural to you.

Sure, now after 3 (or more?) years of gaming you have so much confidence and so much experience with women that you can just walk up to them with "hi" and get a number and even an f close. But could you do it 3 years ago? No. It SEEMS like this to you now, but it can't be true or you wouldn't have been here to begin with.

All the "junk and fluff" as you call it has become such an integral part of who you are, that you now think that it's all "natural". It is natural for some... that's why we call them "naturals". But if you are on this forum for 3 years and took the time to write more than 2000 posts - you were not a natural.

Another problem taking advice from Gurus and all the "dating companies" is that after the community was exposed together with the lines / routines / the whole system they realized that they CANNOT keep the focus on canned material because its been saturated and exposed!

They knew that most guys are LAZY and don't have what it takes to sit down and come up with hours and hours of GOOD routines all by their own, and that because the community has become so large they can't keep putting out material because everybody just runs to the streets / clubs and starts using them - NOT GOOD.

So all the advice and products turned away from canned material to the more "natural" style of game / inner game but this is CRAP because the truth is that canned material is KING.

When it comes to new guys, its what allows you to go out there and concentrate on opening, your tonality / eye contact / posture while you BLAST your targets with canned stuff while you get field experience.

IF YOU ARE GOING OUT THERE WITHOUT GOOD MATERIAL - YOU WILL BE RUNNING AROUND LIKE A HEADLESS CHICKEN.

DO NOT just GO OUT. Spend half the time in the field, and half the time COMING UP WITH NEW MATERIAL. Then as you have more and more material and become better and better - reduce the amount you spend on learning and just go out sarging.

All the gurus (TD / Style / Mystery) etc had HOURS of routines, they could go on and on and on blasting their targets with HIGH QUALITY A1,A2,A3, C, S etc which would NEVER fail because it was field tested and refined by hundreds of approaches.

But they cannot simply teach you all of these routines - you need to come up with your OWN ones, because of the reason mentioned above (saturation) and because it must be congruent with your personality.

Later after 5000 approaches and months in the field advanced players / gurus forget how important canned material and theory is because it has become part of WHO THEY ARE.

It's funny but I can already feel this on MYSELF.

Yesterday for the first time I number and kissed closed a girl ON THE STREET (I still can't believe it! An awesome club dancer, HB9!) and then pulled another girl out of a club and f closed here within 20 minutes, telling her that she is coming home with me to see my "stamp collection".

I kino escalated her so fast and push/pulled her fucking brains out, on the way to the hotel she kept saying "where are we going where are we going" as token resistance and inside I was telling myself "THANK YOU TYLER DURDEN, THIS IS TOO EASY! ".

If this would happen three months ago I wouldn't even KNOW what token resistance is and I would have probably stopped in the street and start to EXPLAIN her that WE ARE GOING TO MY HOTEL and would ask her "ARE YOU OK WITH IT ????" But now knowing this stuff I was just laughing to myself, talking about the WEATHER, thinking "I'M GONNA BANG THIS CHICK 5 MINUTES FROM NOW AND IT'S GOING TO BE AWESOME"

ALREADY I have internalized so much material, so many routines, so many alpha mannerisms, that while on set if someone would see me from the side he would think that I'm a natural alpha male that pulls ass from the age of 14. I already don't remember which of the routines are mine, which ones I "borrowed", and which ones are spontaneous. All the sets mash together while I'm on autopilot calibrating.

But is it really ME? Is it really so easy?? NO! It is the NEW ME.

This is the result of THREE MONTHS of non stop work and sarging EACH NIGHT all coming together and clicking at the right time and in the right place.

To all the newbies out there - be very careful when you take advice from gurus and very advanced players who say things like Jurupua. To them it already all seems natural / easy / obvious / smooth - but this is only because they internalized everything and it is part of who they are.

STICK WITH THE PROGRAM and in a few months / years you will be there too.

And write TONS of canned material and USE IT. See what works, see what doesn't, refine it, improve it... Routines are KING.

I was horrible with women before getting into pick up. You don't wanna know.

But If your starting off, canned lined, routines, openers, and all that stuff is great. I love Mystery Method just because it breaks down the game and if you follow it to the teeth, it will help figure out where your messing up at.

But after learning Mystery Method, it needs to be droped. You have to learn inner game and just be confidence.

After 3 years, (assuming your doing a lots approaches) you need to be good enough to just be able to walk up to a women and start a conversation with whatever. As the guys in RSD put it "being good with women is something you are, is not something your doing."

Same for me!

In the beginning, I never approached women in clubs. Because I had AA, and I didn't know what to do. But the silly thing is, that i am really good in small talks. I am very easy with girls from colleges, work, usually i am the funny clown. But funny guys don't get laid.

I started with MM. I was already good in small talks (mr. niceguy), but now i don't stay in the friendszone. It did help me with girls I know from school or work, or female friends of friends.

Still I had AA. I didn't approach girls in clubs. Here I started to read 60 years for my inner game. It opened my eyes. Al these years I have always looked from my point of view, rather than overview the whole situation.

Still i am not an experienced PUA, but the gaming of the last 6 months gave me enormous self-confidence!

In the end you have to do what you think is the best to do. I don't follow the steps/techniques as an automatic pilot. I do what i think it feels right

No no no! This shit (sorry) is what fucked me up for the past 2 out of 3 months! This is something terrible for newbies to see because they can't really understand it!

I was thinking "if RSD and everybody else are saying "be yourself" anyway then I'll just be direct and myself" ... but I got NOWHERE! Only when I started incorporating push/pull / C&F / negs / qualification etc into my game my results started to improve.

Example - most non natural alpha guys don't "naturally" qualify chicks - this is something that at first you need to force yourself to do.

This is subtle but KEY: MM should NOT be dropped - it should DISSOLVE NATURALLY INTO YOUR NEW PERSONALITY. And until that happens you should STICK WITH THE PROGRAM.

STICK WITH THE PROGRAM.
STICK WITH THE STRUCTURE.
STICK WITH THE ROUTINES.

Do this until one day you will realize that you are not thinking about it and you and the "system" have become "one".

0uch, you are STILL doing MM just you don't realize it. Your MM looks like this:

A1 - you open naturally.
A2 - you DHV naturally with your (new) "cool" personality and confidence.
A3 - you qualify the chick naturally because of your tight inner game, non neediness and standards.

Mystery said himself that MM is simply the natural pick up process reversed engineered. In fact MM is not a METHOD but just a MAP for something which is there naturally. Perhaps that's why the new book from Mystery is called "Revelation" because it is nothing more than that.

There is just too much information and conflicting methods out there and too much confusion. So newbies should just stay focused and stick with MM, all the rest is noise that can only be understood later on. Don't get me wrong - you should read and watch EVERYTHING out there, especially inner game stuff, but when it's time to go out and actually PU women - put everything aside and concentrate on MM until it sticks.

Good post Phangan.


I think you have a good point and I am probably guilty of what you are talking about in my exchanges in the thread "Secret to PUA."


I do not consider myself a natural because I still get tongue-tied and awkward and I do not even consider myself a real PUA (I'm happily married swinger and not picking up single chicks in bars) let alone an MPUA, but I have got to point where I think it doesn't matter what you say as long as you are making the effort and saying something while sexually escalating.

The thing I hate to see is guys get hung up in tiny details and choking and doing nothing for fear of doing something that is not by the book. Most chicks haven't read the book and all they know is that either some guy looks comfortable talking to them or they don't.

I agree with you that it helps to start out with a framework and an algorythm in mind. But where it bites you in the ass is how bad you are going to choke if you get your A1 and A2s mixed up.

If your mind goes blank and you can't remember your next line and so you bail or just choke and do nothing, you are in a worse position than if you are just babbling about stupid stuff on the top of you head.

Here's why I think that - people have a real problem with people approaching someone with "intent." Everyone wants everything to be natural and flowing. People have a real issue with people trying to manipulate or trying to use lines on them or following a script. If you can use lines and routines to the point you can do them seemlessly and flawlessly then fine. go for and the 150th chick you approach will like it.

Most of the other 149 chicks will prefer if you were talking from your heart and communicating your own personality and own thoughts and ideas even if you sound like a dork.

It is a catch 22 and I realize that.

Hey here2play -

The 150th girl will like it not because it's a numbers game but because by the time you delivered the line 150 times - you OWN it, it becomes yours.

It will come out awkward the first 149 times because it's A) not your line and B) you are still getting used to talking to chicks...

I never do lines that I feel uncomfortable with to begin with, but also lines that could have been mine - at first they also needed a lot of practice. People who just start doing this are not practiced at being social, sometimes not just with girls but with anybody!

(I know I am - after being stuck in a 9 year relationship bubble, I also work from home... I had very little social interaction for YEARS, crazy me... )

At this point I think I could throw any line and make it sound spontaneous / mine because I've been doing this for 3 months... it's like studying acting, the exact same thing.

practice practice practice makes perfect perfect perfect.

I agree with you on both counts.

I guess the point I am trying to make is I think those first 149 chicks would rather someone be sincere and honest and be themselves even if it was awkward and bumbling rather than smooth and charming if the smooth and charming was fake and canned.

Yes they may not have a SNL but when I get right down to it, I don't think teenagers should be having SNLs in the first place. All my friends and I fumbled through talking to girls and fumbled around trying to get their zippers undone. We survived and we flourished and we didn't have Mystery telling us about A1s and A2s and I don't know if it would have really helped if we had.

They way of the natural is awkward and fumbling and working through the awkwardness. Brad Pitt himself was likely fumbling and Awkward the first time he tried to talk to a girl and get in her pants. He may have fumbled through 149 girls too before things clicked.

It's OK to feel awkward, guess what, chicks feel awkward too. Chicks fuck up lines and chicks say and do stupid stuff too.

Hey,

To your other point, girls not reading MM.... They don't need to. They know (built in) that someone who comes direct is interested in them and therefore is not worth it (we want what we can't have... not what we can have easily) . So at first, before you really become that high value alpha male, you should come indirect.

Then, you should qualify... so she knows that you like her for who she is, not just for how she looks like. (That's A3)

Now... HOW THE HELL would I know to do this without MM? It would take me YEARS to figure out this one! (again - a natural alpha guy would do it anyway... but not 85% of us) and guess what, it DID take YEARS for Mystery to figure it out. I think it took him 2-3 years to get good at this.

By just being myself and going out and talking with chicks... yea, I would get lucky once in a few weeks. But by "seeing the matrix" and knowing how attraction really works - you can increase your chances by 5000% .

EDIT: You're saying they would rather it be awkward but sincere... man... Why would anybody want awkwardness? They want that guy that will come in and sweep them off their feet.

But about the "being sincere point" - the material and pickup becomes sincere only once you really DO own the material and become "that guy". Only then it actually starts to work. You cannot pull this off without actually BEING that guy.

That's why it takes months to develop this skill. Nobody can read MM and just go out the same night and start pulling ass on left and right... it doesn't work like that, never. It's always a long long process. Implementing MM works only when it IS sincere, that's what I mean when I say that "you and the system become one".

Until then, it is going to be awkward and it is NOT going to work.

But with a lot of practice, it will start working. First just once in a while. You practice more... then it happens again, you push forward. And then with enough practice, it will work every time. That's when you absorbed the "method" and become alpha...

And then... you don't need to drop MM. It will drop all by itself.

(and then you become a guru and start telling people "PU is not about lines or anything else just go out and be yourself!!! hahaha bullshit)

PU is about finding your ALPHA SELF.

There is an ALPHA male in ALL of us, it just needs some training. This is something else I realized yesterday... but that's a whole other post.

LOL, this thread made me laugh. Thanks guys.

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Never get broken up with again: the-addiction-formula-never-get-broken- ... 88794.html

I don't know if I should laugh, cry or what after reading this thread. Tho should say stop over thinking this too much and taking all this PUA stuff so seriously. I did and it did early on and it didn't do me any favors. Also routines are not king, not to say they don't help when your starting out but they are not king, confidence is.

I'm reading "The Attraction Code".

Yet another - "I used canned material for 5 years but then realized that I actually don't need it because all you need to do is be cool and not give a fuck and then girls will like you"

Geez, thanks.

I think my post is right on the money, your reaction (jurupa, Warped Mindless) both with accounts from 2008 - more than enough time to become "natural" - just prove my point.

Once you become good at PUA you can't relate to newbies, period.

Newbies should stick to canned material (self generated) and stick to MM until they become naturally good at it (~ 6 months) OR they can go out each night and open sets, be themselves and become good, but I bet this will take much much longer, maybe 2-3 years...

Whats so interesting to me is that I seemed to start backwards and went full circle.

When I was 17-21 I was a total natural. HB10's weren't a challenge because I had no clue about social dynamics. I was arrogant, egotistical and clueless. The result was relentless shamless confidence of approaching the hotest girl in the room and opening her instantly.

However, back then all that over confidence was a cover to low self esteem. Like so many other dudes I doubted myself too much and when I was 5 feet from an F close I would chicken out because I didn't want to offend a girl, or be seen as a player, or be judged as an asshole that uses people.

After being so successful for years, each of those HB10's chipped away at my overconfidence until it was broken down. I wanted to please them and I wanted to be a "good guy". So I listened to all thier bullshit and let them chip away my perfect natural game. What was left was the core problem - ME. Success plumetted. HB10's were out of reach.

So for years I worked solely on inner game (again no idea I was doing it) until finally I had all the inner confidence I needed. I don't need to prove myself to anyone, and I don't give a shit if some bloodsucking bimbo thinks I'm a player. I am one, and I only want to fuck her brains out for the night and leave. I'm also perfectly willing to tell her that. HB10's out of reach, but HB7's easy as hell.

So then I discovered PUA. It litterally made me so concerned with the details of gaming that I was getting all twisted up in it and my game plummeted again for a bit but then started becoming more calculated. HB8's easy as hell.

Now I'm just fine tuning and HB9/10's are getting easier and easier. But i'm finding that I care less and less about results. I'm over it. It's like a game I played the hell out of and even though I got all the achievements I wanted to, I just feel like I have to get the final ones for completeness.

I think all this PUA stuff can be like quicksand. You can really get sucked down into it to the point where you head is under the sand and you are only fighting against yourself, drowning in details and missing the whole point.

I agree with using some of the basic stuff to get back up in the saddle, but like some of you said, once you get that boost, it's up to you to just grab the reigns and finish the race regardless of what place you get. There will always be more races and whats important is how you push yourself to improve without tieing your success to whether some ditzy blonde with big tits is willing to blow you in the back alley of some dance club.

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"Would it be wrong to join sexaholics anonymous to pick-up chicks?" "...yes, and stop eating that baby."

-Psych3r-

Haha... I'm kind of the same. When I was 19 I used to be pretty good, I used to open and get girls over to my place with no problem just because I had no idea what I was doing.

I used to tell girls to come over to my place as a first date (to "watch a movie on my VCR") , they were really surprised and I didn't understand why because I was clueless... they always came anyway. I had a really cool looking room painted in blue / grey / black, it looked like out of a magazine, nothing like a room of a 19 years old.

Anyway years later I realized what I have done, that it was totally out of place to invite them like that and I also realized that my room was a perfect seduction location (a king bed, a TV, the cool colored walls and a lava lamp - that's it, nothing else) so they would come over, went gaga over the room, had to sit on my bed... I never got to watch any movies.

And then......... a LTR fucked me up real good.

Don't know if I call my self a natural. I stop taking the theories so seriously and learn how awesome direct game is and a few other things and realized how caught up people get in this. I follow a well known system which goes by K.I.S.S or Keep It Simple Stupid. It works pretty darn well I may say.
First off MM theory sucks. Its way to freaking scientific and detailed. I actually laugh when I saw the Pick Up Artist on VH1 in the first season of it. And that's when I first learned about pick up and what have you. I never said using canned material was bad to learn from, its getting caught up in these theories like you seem to have that is bad as then you start to overthink things and what have you and that is bad.