I'm kicking my own ass tonight for this blunder...

This girl I work with is an HB6.

She had just thoroughly cleaned the dish sinks, and put fresh water in them.

More dishes were soon created and I went to do them:

Her: "You better not get my fresh dishwater dirty!"

Me: "Oh yea? or you'll do what?"

Her: *pauses to think about it for a few seconds*
"...or I might have to kiss you"

My first impulse was to walk over and say "You might have to anyway" and kiss her.

But I fought that impulse for several reasons: 1) She's not 18 quite yet... but very soon 2) I was at work, I didn't want to risk my job 3) she either is still in, or just got out of a relationship, and I was getting the impression they had been together for a while 4) I'm friends with her brother, and I know how society likes to crucify ephebophiles (I'm 25)...

Me: *not expecting that at all, and taking a solid ten seconds to fight off above impulse, and come up with a response*
"Haha I better not do that then."

LAME. I meant to emphasize the word "that" more to be more playfully joking, but I was taken a little aback and I'm not sure it came across that way.

I've grown accustomed to not having women flirt with me. But lately I've been taking the advice in alot of the thing's I've been reading and trying to reframe my conversations in a way that allows me to be the dominant one. I've grown not to expect women to flirt with me like that... I was actually kinda shocked...

I think it's also because I'm putting alot more effort into appearing happy and trying to be more sociable in general than I have been.

It elicited no response, but she has been generally more smiley with me lately (even after the comment that day).

What would have been the best way to respond to this situation?

Is there any easy way I can do some damage control? Or is the situation out of hand now because she probably thinks I was too scared to act?

hey man,

first off, don't regret anything to much that happened in the past, you can't change it.

second, sounds like there is an actual legit reason to hesitate on this one. Not being 18 and being at work can get sticky. It is really depends if you think the girl will say anything.

How good friends are you with her brother? I would just say talk to the brother up front and tell him the situation, that way if it does go anywhere you'll be cool with him.

Good luck and really think about if the juice is worth the squeeze

Her brother and I worked together for like a year.

We currently aren't that close (mostly because of proximity to one another), but when him and I used to kick it we both felt that really strong friend vibe, so he's a dude I respect well.

You're right about not regretting!

That's part of the getting used to rejection thing. If it didn't go my way one time I need to make it habit to not care, and wait til the next chance.

Sixteen is legal tender in my state, but I was more worried about the being at work situation.

I should probably just hope this fruit presents itself for squeezing outside of work someday...

I think for the most part you made a good call, hell it could still work out in your favor as she may think you are playing hard to get. When you are at work you really don't want to do anything that could get you in trouble

Okay... I put some thought into this, and formulated a recovery plan.

Let me know what you guys think.

The next time I see her I'm going to walk up to her and say this, "Hey, do you remember the other day when you said you might have to kiss me if I dirtied your dishwater?"

*wait response*

"Well, what I actually meant to do was walk up to you and say, 'Well now you MIGHT have to!'"

*proceeds to go for previously missed kiss-close*

UPDATE: Ended up not going with the aforementioned recovery plan.

Instead I said something like "Hey, remember the other day when you threatened me for dirtying your sink? Did you not notice that I went out of my way to dirty your sink just to see if you'd make good on your little threat?"

She smiled and said something like "What threat was that?" She was obviously bluffing. I said, "Oh you don't remember? That's okay it was no biggie," and walked away.

A little later on that day she approached me and said "What threat did I make the other day?" So I said "You threatened to kiss me." This elicited no response, or facial expression as far as I could see. I figured that was the end of the story until today.

Today I drew two major IOIs from her but had no idea how to respond to them (bare in mind this is happening at work, with cameras on). I'm not that far into the Mystery Method yet, or I'd be able to extract answers for myself, but even if I were I still value the opinions of the people here.

The first IOI happened while I was walking back from taking the trash out. Figuring the "hard to get" SPAM must be working I tried to act all non-nonchalant about both of them. She was in her car smoking with a co-worker and as I walked by she shouted "Hey sexy thing!" I simply looked back while I was walking and flashed an evil grin.

The second IOI happened during a time while other co-workers were out smoking and she was on the line by herself with a couple orders, so I said "Can I offer you a hand?"

She pauses for a couple of seconds and says "Yea," then, and I shit you not, she grabs her boob and like plumps it out for me to grab it, but then immediately turns around and goes "just kidding." MAJOR IOI here. Again I had no idea what to say so I just go blank and smile (I really need to get out of this habit).

I really feel like I should be saying something in these situations, but it always seems like the right thing to say is always the most counter-intuitive to me.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this, and I'm still not sure if I really want to pursue this, but I do want to know how you guys would have acted in this situation if you were to choose to pursue it.

I bumped into her brother the other day (who I mention above is a friend of mine), and he invited me to a poker game at his house next week. I mention this to her and she says "Oh cool, that means I'll be there too."

Also, I picked up on the fact that her boyfriend comes to these poker games too... seems unlikely but could this be a trap waiting to happen?

I have a sister myself and I've been thinking about how I would feel if I were in this guy's situation. I've come to the conclusion that when my sister is banging somebody I like (and this guy and I are pretty good dudes), I don't mind at all, but when my sister's banging some scrote it really bothers me. The difference between that and this situation though is my sister and I are somewhat close in age, whereas I'm twenty-five and this chick's just turning eighteen.

I was also able to confirm through overhearing some random fragment of conversation that she is indeed still seeing her boyfriend, despite throwing out these IOIs to me.

Finally, during random conversation, she asks me if I know where there's a gym. I ask her if she's planning to workout, and she says "Yes, I need to be less ugly if that's even possible." She's clearly fishing for a compliment with this one. However, I still feel like we are still at the "attraction stage" and according to Mystery that's too early to give out free compliments. But I didn't want to leave her hanging on that one either so I said "Don't worry I'm sure you can do it." Which is in line with the "hard to get" strategy I seem to be employing here...

So I guess I'm asking you guys to address the following five questions:

1) Things aren't always as they appear, (as demonstrated by this viewtopic.php?p=452708), what do you guys make of this situation in general now that you have more details?

2) How would you have reacted to each of these two major IOIs, and why?

3) How do you feel about the fishing for compliments issue? Should I have given her the compliment she wanted right then and there, or did I make the right decision by choosing to wait and compliment her on my own terms when more comfort has been established?

4) What are your thoughts on me wanting to do my good friend's teenage sister? Would you be upset if you were her brother and found out about this?

5) What do you think about the whole boyfriend scenario? I have no way of telling if she's getting sick of the dude, the dude's just not putting out, or if I've somehow overpowered her boyfriend in attractiveness (least likely scenario, lol).

Do you think she's just looking for some sex from someone other than her b/f or do you think she wants out (I'm hesitant to just have sex with my friend's sister, but I'm also hesitant to genuinely date somebody who would have sex with me before dumping her current boyfriend). Obviously, I'm not trying to be a player in this situation.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys! I do value your input, and if you help me get better at this shit, I will in turn do my absolute best to help other people on this forum when I can.

I think it is wise to hestitate here, I mean, she IS NOT 18 yet. Also the fact that it was on your work, makes it way easier the blow something like this off. If you really want to hook up with her, just get her number and hit her up when she's 18. IMO thats the safe road

as a general rule i never date someone who cheated on their bf especially if i was the person she cheated with. mess around with sure keep things flirty and light doesn't matter you are just having fun.

about the age gap it really doesn't matter that much when you think about it, most people will still talk (if they find out) about the age difference in one way or another. If it helps put your mind at ease just escalate more and more till its time to do work around her 18th. but i've said before it really doesn't matter because if you make out with the girl you aren't breaking any laws there.

with her IOIs it seems like she is trying to do something big to gauge your interest before going "lol jk". So either she is just trying to get a rise out of you at work or is bored with her relationship and just likes the attention. When gaming you WILL come across attention whores, it will seem like they are totally into you. Texting all the time, showing IOIs, being "friendlier" to you than others, etc. When in fact she is just using you for attention her bf can't give her.

Not saying completely thats whats happening in YOUR situation but I am giving you insight on possible outcomes of what MAY happen. It's always good to see things from multiple angles, pro tip is analyze ONCE the situation has passed rather than on the spot. You want to seem effortless when she talks to you in person, but later on you can break things down.

for the whole friends little sister scenario how long have you known him? I have known my best friend for about 13 years and everyone in the group still universally agrees that we would bone his sister lol. We openly talk about it and it never bothered him.

It's alright to be selfish and think about YOU because if you don't do it who will? If anything happened i'm sure the girl herself would NOT want it going public either just put on your game face and plow through.

I really needed to read that. For some reason things like that don't occur to me naturally.

Really glad I've been playing it so cool and just kinda shrugging it off. I overheard her complaining about her boyfriend today, and it sounds like he's the one getting bored of her.

She was there today being all flirty with me still. Nothing as major as the IOIs above though.

How does one tell the difference between an attention whore and somebody whose really into you?

I've known her brother for about two years (but moved away during one of them), but we get along quite well.

Somebody in the chat-room pointed out that some girls who lack father figures may tend to go for older guys, and I think this may be the case here too.

I'm not all that worried about the age gap, I can wait until she's 18 if anything happens, and I'm pretty sure 16 is legal in my state anyways (though I still wouldn't dip that young because of vigilante redneck dads with shotguns).

To be honest, this has turned more into a fun thought experiment for me than anything. I don't even think I want a girlfriend anymore because I want to go out and apply the stuff I've been learning and see if I can get better at this. I wouldn't mind having sex with this chick, but it's not worth it to me to lose her brother's friendship over it (which I don't think would happen if we were actually dating, but might happen if I just do her [assuming I even can]).
Why do women do this? Just to inflate their egos at the expense of some lonely sap? That just seems so wrong...

yes it would be horrible to waste all the time and energy training you to be a PUA just to fall for the first girl you bag. Some guys feel it is just a fluke and stay with the first average girl they game successfully, do not be that guy YOU can always do better. it is after you have sampled various delights then you can make an informed decision of what you REALLY want rather than what you just can get.

hmm as far as that... welcome to women? I have to say growing up i was always friend zoned and the shoulder to cry on. Or I would be completely oblivious to a girl liking me and i would ruin the opportunity presented and i became a passing interest. Then after awhile i was really down on myself that i could never be the guy that hooked up with girls i was always the emotional pillow.

One day i just said "fuck it" and i didn't care about what women thought about me I was 18 at the time and I had believed that I would find a girl i really "loved" to lose my virginity to. Don't get me wrong I have fooled around (oral etc) just never had sex up to that point. I started off easy i knew there was this girl that wanted to have sex with me invited her over, had sex for the first time laid in my bed and i told her she "knew the way out".

I became more bitter towards women and I didn't notice what was happening little by little.. until it all "clicked". Started hooking up and having sex with more girls going out more gaining quite a bit of popularity at the same time. I noticed how women loved cocky assholes which i have apparently become by that point... I seethed because I had become something i didn't think i was capable of doing.. thus hating women more for twisting me into something.. BUT i can't complain I was gaming multiple women and once i had sex the LONGEST i ever went without it must of been less than 2-3 weeks.

It may not happen the same way to you but i know for me thats how I learned how to read situations. By effectively being on BOTH sides of the coin, being the shoulder to cry on when i was younger and being the guy that girls cried about later on in life.

The route you are currently at isn't bad, you never want to seem that interested in a girl. In fact you want to seem disinterested, giving that attitude of "whats so special about you?" to the girl. That is when she will try and qualify herself to you and that is one of the signs she may be into you. I have used that tactic before when pretty much anywhere, pretty girl walks in every guy has their jaw dropped simply ignore. She walks by next to me i glimpse at her shrug and pretend she is nothing special. Some girls will notice and in their brains you can see the cogs "OMG why isn't this guy checking me out? am i not hot enough?". THAT is when you know you already have the upper hand.

Yes most women will rope some poor guy just for attention so they can feel better about themselves... yeah its a bitch isn't it? lol

Yes, yes it is.

After being the pillow to cry on for a few times I gave up and literally just cut women out of my life altogether, since I couldn't have them as anything more than friends, and I have good friends already (there have been exceptions to this).

God I hope it clicks for me soon.

Actually alot of the reason I want to do this is simply because I want to be in a normal human relationship with someone I actually am REALLY into.

But please train me to be PUA! I swear I'll take my time picking one if I can learn this!

I am not the be all end all authority on PUA in fact some other members may not agree with anything I said. I'm just a guy telling you my experiences so that you may learn from them either what to do or not do. But at least you think about it beforehand so i figure at least in that my information is helpful.

One of the most common exercises i tell my friends to go through to the supermarket. Usually a veritable treasure trove waiting to be uncovered, both the cashiers and the girls shopping are viable so good for target practice. Also a slight bonus when a girl sees a GUY do the shopping shows that you either have your own place/live alone OR you are responsible/picky about your diet.

Learning how to game I believe relies heavily on seizing initiative the moment you see an opening. Not to say you should just WAIT for that opening to happen to make your move rather... Recognize when something doesn't go according to plan and be ready to pounce without a moments hesitation. Don't be scared to create your own moments and take charge being aggressive does have it's uses.

For example hang out by the produce section, see a girl that is at least passable by your standards looking at the fruit. Move close but not within her personal space, pick up said fruit gaze at it and ask the girl "excuse me but I have NO idea how to pick these, how do you know if they are good or not?".

Breaking down the situation you aren't getting in the girls face about anything, it seems innocent enough you have no idea and you are asking for an opinion on something. Of course here is where you start reading all the subtle signals as she helps you pick out the fruit. Not quite sure where you are in your game but you can lay down a friendly flirt or two and see where it takes you.

Do not put into your head that you NEED to do something do not act any extra pressure especially when you first start out. Take small victories where you can get them and walk away knowing you are better off now than you were a few mins ago. Like i said my train of thought works with what I am familiar with, I am a natural/indirect type of PUA. Not that i have never direct gamed, when you are short on time or just don't want to waste ANY time direct game has it's merits. It is just not my number one way to get things done.

another example would be okay you are ready to check out, there is a cute cashier with little to no line. Make sure its not packed and there is nobody behind you as they are in a rush to get out of the supermarket and can mess up any game you could be running. Greet with a smile and pending on her facial expression open up with the common "rough day?" usually followed by "well at least you are out soon right?" stack a few conversation pieces in a short amount of time without making it seem like an interrogation and you are doing pretty good.

It is up to you if you want to game this long term (another visit or so) as something of a casual project or you want to close ASAP. Again you measure body language/facial expression and her response.

I'm slowly working my way through the mystery method at the moment, trying to implement little elements of it one at a time into my interactions, to answer your question about where I am.

I think that doing that (combined with reading the game, and perusing these forums regularly) has brought me from below AFC status to about the status of a regular AFC (if that's not the case please don't tell me, thinking this is giving me a badly needed boost to the old confidence), but I still have lots of reading and video watching left to do in the MM.

And I know you probably aren't the end all of PUA, nobody can be perfect at this, but you're probably alot better than I am. When I said "please train me!" I was kind of talking to anybody who may be reading my posts and have input for me.

I think I'm at the point where I can have the kind of casual conversation with that cashier you were talking about, "rough day?" I've actually been taking the time occasionally to walk around wal-mart and do what you're talking about when I go shopping. Problem I'm having is number closing and not coming off as boring.

The pressure thing is another huge problem for me. I don't NEED to do anything, you're right in that respect, but I'm demanding progress from myself, so that makes me feel obligated to do better. I'm sure this problem will work itself out when I start seeing more success, but for now it feels like I have no choice but to try something new when I'm talking to a chick.

I've never been very good at gauging body language either (except for the glazed over eyes, god your boring, I don't want to talk to you look, I'm quite adept at seeing that) but again this is something I figure will come with practice.

I assume you watched the show on VH1 of the Pick Up Artist? I found the first season to be particularly helpful for people starting out there game. I only found out about it a few years after it aired but I was surprised about the similarities of my natural game matching most of what mystery taught on the show.

Usually I tell anyone of my friends to look through the videos first to get a rough idea on why or why not their game is failing. Then knowing my friends i fill out the blank areas and personalize or relate their game to something they can connect to. I even tell them whenever they are approaching to imagine mystery critiquing their game. What would he say while they are running game?

One of the most common faults I see in people i'm giving advice to is at times they see the material working and they revert back to bad habits mid game... This of course tends to lead to a complete loss. One for failing at the set and second for reverting back to bad habits. Think of it this way you have lived your way for X amount of years and it hasn't been working out for you, DO something different. After a few tries if nothing changes then sure you can revert back. Pro Tip it DOESN'T fail if you commit to the program.

It is true that some will excel more so than others but the name of the game is progress. At times it will seem you only moving an inch at a time and other times you are bounding and leaping through that progress. It will usually help if you have a wing particularly during night game unless you are approaching girls that are solo. Even then it is good to have your wing waiting on the side to create a false time constraint.

Remember YOU are an interesting person, you have a lot to offer and your time is VERY valuable. You may think to yourself "there is nothing special about me" but you are just not seeing the potential. For example i am recently unemployed, returned back to school to finish my teaching certification, i am on the bigger side. But that doesn't stop me at all from running game. The weight thing I've been working on (from 280 to 238), used to work in a super market so not a big loss losing that since I have money saved up anyway. As long as you don't APPEAR flat out broke when you are out in the town most women won't care. Going back to school to finish my teaching certification, women see that I am doing something with my idle time and I am going for a profession not just a job.

I have also found that dressing for confidence helps, if YOU think you look good that confidence will directly effect your game. Take time to go to the mall one day spend the day shopping and seeing what you like and looks good on you. Even if you can't get it all at once just window shop for a bit before you commit to buying. When I was younger I would always fun of Express (because I couldn't afford it) but when I grew up and went into express saw a sale and cleaned up. Best decision i've made clothes wise I always get compliments on the shirts I bought from there. I also found if you just look at one thing yes it seems expensive but wait for sales, online discounts etc and it actually becomes A LOT easier to afford.

When gauging responses from a girl you look for the obvious one, playing/twirling hair around finger, constant eye contact, light touching/grazing of your arm/back/just about any body part. If they laugh at something you say, obviously not in a mocking/sarcastic tone unless it is part of the routine. Since you already have seen first hand some of the body language of what it is like when the target is disinterested just look for any of the opposite signs.

Find ways to make yourself more interesting even if you have to put yourself knee deep in something. Women love hearing stories it talks you up to them it shows you are an adventurer you like to take risks. Tell you the truth not quite sure why women love stories but since I am quite the story teller I have seen it time and time again work wonders when I tell a story. Even if you have to practice on your friends "that reminds me of this one time..." because even guys can appreciate a good story.

Also sorry for the sloppy posts I tend to write very formally most of the time for school work so when i'm on the net i tend not to follow any of the rules lol. If you read each paragraph as its own point you shouldn't get that confused. good luck

Well... point for point...

1) I gave that show a download, but haven't been watching it yet because I've heard from others on these forums that it's not THAT helpful. So I figured with the Mystery Method in hand they could wait. Thanks to your suggestion I'll start watching an episode every night.

2) Man what I wouldn't give for a friend like you as a wing.

3)
I can see how this is difficult. I think it's because of the emphasis on seeming fluent and effortless. When you see a little bit of progress, and realize you have to follow up on it, then blank out, you think "FUCK GOTTA SAY SOMETHING!" and out comes your same old tired shit. That's the reason I'm planning to make flashcards with some canned openers, routines, and dhvs, and stories just for that contingency. Until I'm able to come up with my own unique natural material.

4) Working on finding a wing, the thing that sucks is most of my friends look at me cockeyed when I try to talk about this stuff like "what? that doesn't come naturally? duh... what are you talking about?" Still, I have enough friends to go into the bar and drop a false time restraint, but if I said "hey let's go approach that set, that redhead is mine!" they wouldn't know to block the obstacle that is her fat friend...

5) I'm really happy to hear you're progressing on your weight goal! Great work and keep at it! I've recently made a huge leap in the "working towards a goal" department myself, my goal is to get real employment. I think I might do this by joining the military (which will also get me out of dodge where I can practice better). Fortunately, I'm a pretty good looking guy, so at least I've got that going for me. My issues seem to be with my personality.

I know that I'm interesting and that my time is valuable, some (the rare, smart girls) occasionally get lost in conversation with me. The problem is demonstrating that to girls who don't already know me.

6) Dressing the part is a problem for me financially, but today I had my female cousin (I'd say she's an HB8, but for the fact that she's my cousin) pick me out a shirt. Going to try to invest in new clothes one paycheck at a time until I can make some real money, at which point I'm going to throw away all of my old wardrobe and start over. What is express? Don't think we have those here in Ohio. I think alot of people wear stuff from the American Eagle, and the pac-sun though...

7) I think I can notice the IOI's but still have problems with close timing. But like I said I'm still not done with MM so that just seems like a lack-of-studying logistical issue that I will get sorted out here soon.

Storytelling is difficult for me. I think probably the best story I have I can't even share on this forum because it's not permissible (apparently) to reference illegal things on these forums, and that's the only one I can really come up with off the top of my head. Guess I lead a boring life. I can see already that this is going to be a real sticking point for me.

9) I think I'll live. I'll take a sloppy post over nothing any day. Good luck with school I hope you get straight As dude!