Whenever I study a subject, I always look for basic principles. I've read the various MM books and many other seduction sources, as well as classic martial texts and many books dealing with influence generally. For the sake of this discussion, by "martial arts" I mean "the art of defeating an opponent in a conflict."

I believe the principles of indirect method in the venusian and martial arts are the same. In this post, I want to do two things:

1. Present the basic principle of the indirect method taught in the MM and Revelation teachings--as I understand them
2. Explain how the basic principle applies to both martial and venusian arts

I want to state emphatically that I don't claim originality. I am simply trying to take what I have learned from the brilliant PUAs in the community and condense it into a form that I can use. I relied extensively on Lovedrop's metaphors of ghost and glame. If I have misrepresented any of the MM teachings, then the fault is completely my own, and I apologize. The extension of the method to the martial arts has been implied in many teachings, but I have not personally seen it spelled out, so I'm trying to do it here.

If you notice errors in my understanding of the MM, please correct them. If you know of resources that might help me, please let me know. Note that if you make unkind or unconstructive criticisms, that is fine, too: I just won't bother to respond. See the discussion of the NR defense below.

Basic Problem
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Men and women want the same thing: a person who will satisfy all their needs while needing nothing in return.

In a venusian context, imagine an HB10 who approached you and said sincerely that she would satisfy your basic needs (sex, homecare, companionship--what else is there?) but need nothing in return. You would not hesitate. Women feel the same way, except their set of needs is different and larger.

In a martial context, imagine if you had an opponent who feared you and complied with all your requests. You would like such an opponent.

In a venusian context, the basic problem is that no person, or very few people, can satisfy all needs while needing nothing in return. Demand for high-value partners is huge and supply is low. Competition is fierce in an SPAM of greed, anger, and deceit. Victims abound.

One popular solution to this problem is game.

What Is Game?
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Game is the attempt to influence a target to comply. The game only begins when a target is selected. No target, no game.

In venusian game, the target is an HB. In martial game, the target is an opponent. An opponent is anyone you want to defeat in a competitive conflict: debate, chess, competitive sports, work promotion, fistfight, etc. Venusian arts teach how to game an HB. Martial arts teach how to game an opponent.

In venusian arts, the goal is to seduce the target so that you are in a pleasurable state and the target is in a pleasurable state. In martial arts, the goal is to defeat the target so that you are in a pleasurable state and the target is in painful state.

Any particular game has a desirable goal or destination, but reaching the goal is not the point of game. The point of game is twofold: to enjoy particular games, and to improve your overall game. For this reason, if the destination is not reached in a particular game, but you enjoy this game and improve your overall game, then the game is won.

Basic Frame Metaphors
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All game is played within a basic frame. The basic frame is how you live your life. The basic frame is "Be the man who can satisfy the needs of others but needs nothing." In venusian arts, because you are higher value than the target, you have what she needs, but you don't need what she has. However, if she passes your tests you might generously satisfy her needs--until your attention wanders and you give the next test.

Lovedrop says to be as unassailable as a ghost and as radiant as a flame. The ghost is unaffected by the emotional responses of others, yet the flame gives off positive vibes to everyone it shines upon. The shadow is the absence of your flame. The ghost floats where it will, never attaching to anyone or anything. (Sometimes it almost sounds like Casper the Friendly Ghost is the ideal PUA. Maybe Casper's cool older brother, Steve the Fun Ghost.)

Here are two variant metaphors that I find helpful.

In pitch-black darkness, you're hanging out at a campground with a group of men and women. The women have no light of any kind. The men are wearing weak or broken headlamps. Your headlamp is a massively powerful spotlight. The men walk with you so they can see where they are going, and the women try to stay in your beam. To amuse yourself, you give the most interesting women increasingly difficult tasks. If they comply, you generously turn to bathe them in light before turning away; otherwise you keep moving, leaving them in darkness.

You are a superhero whose gaze gradually raises people's temperature. If you hold your gaze on them long enough, you roast them. You have an enemy who is too weak to hurt you. Rather than confronting him directly, you roast someone else with your gaze, letting your enemy see it. Your enemy is now afraid. To amuse yourself, you give your enemy increasingly difficult tasks. If he complies, you leave him alone and then roast him a bit to remind him of your power. If he defies, you roast him.

Two Basic Strategies
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All game strategies, whether venusian or martial, are either direct or indirect. These two strategies have two versions: PUA/MA and AFC. The PUA/MA versions work. The AFC versions don't.

The PUA/MA indirect and direct methods differ only in how to move the target from an undesired state to a desired state, e.g., from non-attraction to attraction or from non-fear to fear. The indirect method does not directly attempt to induce the desired state; the direct method does. After the desired state is achieved, however, both methods are the same: compliance tests followed by either a reward-punishment combo or simply punishment.

The AFC indirect method never rewards the target. A Venusian AFC will never give IOIs, even when IOIs are given by the target. The AFC never makes a move and so is rejected as weak. The AFC direct method never punishes the target. The AFC gives all IOIs and no IODs, no matter what the target does, and so the AFC is rejected as needy.

Indirect Method: Overview
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I am dealing only with the indirect method, as taught by mPUAs such as Mystery, Lovedrop, and Matador. If I misrepresent this teaching, then the fault is mine. The extension of this indirect method to martial arts (meaning here "conflict arts") has been suggested but, to my knowledge, never completely spelled out.

If the target is in the undesired state, then DHV and refrain from giving positive responses directly to the target until the target is in the desired state. If the target is in the desired state, give the target increasingly greater compliance tests. Any positive response receives a positive reponse followed by a negative response. Any negative response receives a negative response. Continue until you get what you want, you lose interest, or the target consistently defies you. That's it!

In venusian arts, the desired state is attraction. If the target is not attracted, DHV and refrain from giving IOIs until the target is attracted. In other words, the HB wants you to show her you are interested in her, but you don't. If the target is attracted, DHV and give compliance tests. An IOI receives an IOI followed by an IOD. An IOD receives an IOD. Continue until you bed her, you lose interest in her, or she consistently defies you.

In martial arts, the desired state is fear. If the target is not afraid, demonstrate higher power (DHP) and refrain from giving non-threatening responses to the target until the target is afraid. In other words, the opponent wants you to show him you are afraid of him, but you don't. If the target is afraid, DHP and give compliance tests. Compliance receives a positive response followed by a threatening response. Defiance receives a threatening response. Continue until you defeat him, you lose interest in him, or he consistently defies you.

Styles of Indirect Method
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There are two styles of indirect method: hard and soft.

In the soft style, your default mode is to give the target no special attention, either positive or negative. If the target does something good, either as a test response or to please you, reward with positive attention and then drift back to neutrality. Bad responses get neutrality.

In the hard style, your default mode is to withhold attention from the target. If the target does something good, either as a test response or to please you, reward with positive attention and then either give negative attention or withhold attention. Bad responses get either negative attention or no attention.

A "harder" variation of the hard style rewards good behavior with positive attention followed by negative attention, and bad behavior with negative attention.

The general rule seems to be the hotter the girl, the harder the style.

"...Victims abound..."

So to paraphrase some martial-arts quote...

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

So if you can read your target as being someone who was victimized by the game, or past relationship. Then the logical step, in the martial sense, is to exploit this. Create commonality, use the negative energy baggage that she has to your advantage, and focus it to work for you, as opposed to ignoring it and risking the possibility it will turn against you. Maybe after 30min of convo she will decide you remind her too much of her ex or whatever.

I've heard from many people on here that its not good game to talk about past problems, real or made-up... And your post brings up a good point, that its usually a good idea.

Its like most PUA situations, you should only use this techniques of the prerequisites are there. If she's moved on from the negative things in her life, don't go digging up old garbage. But if you find that she brings it up or references this baggage during regular conversation, then you are obligated to bring it up, reveal to her how you both have that in common, and then move on from it. Once she feels that you've both been through the same thing, it will build comfort, and DHV when you drop it quickly and help distract her from it all.

Idk guys... thoughts?

If drawing this analogy helps you game better, then by all means use it. But matching IODs with IODs doesn't work and is what reactive people do. If a girl gives you a negative response, just ignore it. It's less effort and makes you appear more confident with yourself.

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Good point. "You're stupid." "No, YOU'RE stupid." That's meeting an IOD with an IOD in true AFC style. I was thinking of a nonreactive IOD in the sense of a skillful neg or withdrawal of positive attention. The way I see what Lovedrop is saying, if you're a ghost, then all your IODs (and IOIs) are nonreactive.

Neg:

"I can't go out tonight. My friend is in town." "Cool, hope you all have fun. You've got something in your teeth."

Denial of attention:

"I can't go out tonight. My friend is in town." "Cool, hope you all have fun," while your gaze wanders, bored.

I would define those as IODs, but not reactive IOD.

I hadn't thought about this particular issue too much so thank you for bringing it up. I was mainly trying to work out the basic pattern of indirect method in their venusian and martial forms:

Because you are higher value than the HB, you have what she needs, but you don't need what she has. However, if she passes your tests you might generously satisfy her needs--until your attention wanders and you give the next test.

Because you are more powerful than the enemy, his survival depends on you, but your survival does not depend on him. However, if he passes your tests you might generously let him survive--until your attention wanders and you give the next test.

By the way, the whole issue of ethics doesn't come up much here, if at all. I believe that both venusian and martial game can and should be played ethically. If an HB were really suffering from some trauma I absolutely would not exploit that. If I were battling for my life with an enemy I certainly would exploit it.

My classic AFC move was to build comfort and trust before attraction. I'd wear my heart on my sleeve (guess how that worked out). My take on the MM is that no vulnerabilities should be introduced by the PUA until the middle of the comfort phase, and only then in the basic compliance model, e.g., "Tell me what happened" and then reward with "This is what happened to me." If I understand the "flame" and "ghost" metaphors right, in the attraction phase any baggage introduced by the target should be absorbed by the ghost without causing a reaction. The positive vibe is always flowing out, so the target happens to be standing in the light when baggage is mentioned, so be it. The only thing that determines whether the flame shines on the target is compliance tests.