I'm new here, so hi!

I've been single for three years, no real reason, just couldn't be bothered with the hassle of relationships etc. I'm 31, she's 28.

I met this girl online back in June of this year. We built up a very good rapport and became quite flirty before we finally met.

We met, and to be honest, my nerves were shot to pieces so I didn't come across very well at all. But it was my first date in over a year prior to this.
She did most of the talking and although I screwed up in a few places and missed my cues numerous times, I had my previous rapport keeping me afloat, barely!

I sent a text the following day to say I enjoyed the date to which I had a very delayed reply to. It also contained none of the previous flirting and came across rather cold.
I had no intention of chasing her and when she didn't make advances either, I cut my losses and vanished.

My birthday came about a few weeks after the date and no contact and then out of the blue I receive a Happy Birthday email from her. Naturally I was standoffish but pleasant enough.
A week or so later, I had some bad news in the family and implied that I normally keep stuff to myself but I felt I could talk to her, so I gave her the jist of the problem and I asked her again but said "Nothing funny" implying, just friends as I assumed she wasn't interested due to her vanishing act. However, she was very keen on the idea!

We arranged to meet at the pub between the two of us and arranged to go back to hers as she wanted to show me her kitten (sadly it is of the feline variety).
It went a lot better than the first date but no signs of anything other than friends.

Since then, I've gone over to her house 6 or 7 times now to do nothing more than watch TV and just hang out.

However, this is where it starts getting confusing.

The second time I was there, I asked her for a cuddle, which we did with no hesitation.

Still assuming we're only friends.

One of the following times I was there, she kissed me as I left. Again, plenty of cuddles during the visit.

This continues up until the last time I saw her (6 or 7th date) which was a complete change of tactic.
During the cuddling, I was horny as hell so decided to rest my hand on one of her breasts.
Assuming we're friends still, I was a bit wary of doing this! But I was horny, and I don't want to be just friends! I want to be balls deep!
I had my hand there for sometime, gently moving my hand but almost unnoticeable!
The movie finished and we got up, she got a drink or whatever and I went to the bathroom. Came back and I made a joke about my wandering hand. It wasn't met with displeasure so when we went back to the sofa to watch tv again, we cuddled and round two, my hand went right back to where it was. I began to get the raging horn so jokingly said, you have to excuse my roaming hand tonight. She laughed so I thought game on! I eventually got more adventurous and started groping and sliding my hand inside her top to touch her skin, did this for a while and then changed direction and tried to get under her bra, did this for some time and then her hand came up and slowly started to guide me.
I was really groping and touching her nipple until it became so late I had to leave and she had to go to bed for an early morning.
As I was leaving, we had quite a heavy kissing session.
She made it kinda clear I wasn't staying or getting any!

I received a text the following day about a problem with something she had. I replied and also said I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable last night. She replied thanks for the help and that she wasn't uncomfortable at all and was really quite shocked that it happened. If she didn't want me to do it, she would have stopped me, she said.

She knows I've been single for a long time. She also knows I have no other options right now. She is under no illusions that if I wanted sex, I would get it from someone else.
I know she's been hurt and been subject to players who have got what they wanted from her.

I'm not one of these dangerous players but I still threw her a curve ball the other night. However, I feel the damage is done by being the nice guy, not showing my interest until now.

She wants this player unpredictable bad boy type despite saying she doesn't, and telling me how she's got these rules now. Not sleeping with a guy until at least 5 dates etc.

This is where I need help.

We had an msn conversation earlier and amongst non interesting things. The other night came up. I mentioned again, I really hoped it didn't make her feel uneasy etc. She replied no it didn't etc and she quite enjoyed it. It was unexpected and felt herself blushing.

There was a bit of back and forth and I was curious what her intentions were. This was probably a HUGE mistake.
She said she doesn't know if the 'spark' is there or not, and is that okay with me?
Spark or no spark, I want to give her a seeing to! To be fair, I may not mind something more, but it's early days etc, I don't know if I want anything more either.

We agreed that we both didn't know at this stage if we want to be in any relationship which is fine!
Although not so great, she said maybe we should remain friends, no kissing, cuddling and certainly nothing sexual.
However, if we put restrictions on us, how could anything if anything develop?
So we have agreed to stay as we are and let things go as they are because aside from this crap about a spark, we have a lot in common etc so who knows?

However, she's adamant that she won't sleep with me. She will only do that if she's in a relationship. Yet, the players have won their game with her most times.
I'm this damn nice guy so she's laying it all on thick as if she's keeping a pro player at bay!

So how do I get in there? The only spark I see missing is the fact I'm not this exciting bad guy.
I've shown her I'm not predictable which has won me many points I'm sure.

She's not ruled anything out, so I'm still in with a chance. Although if she's hanging onto this relationship card and sparks, I don't know what to do.

What should I try and do now?
Become harder to arrange a date with by being busy etc? Tell her if she asks what I'm doing, that I'm on a date with someone else?
I figure since we've always hung out at her house, I should suggest going somewhere else and make a joke about our last date along of the lines of, just because I groped her then, I don't want her feeling she can take advantage of me this time. There's loads of playful banter between us, so she would find that funny.

I'm pretty sure that everything is going to ride on our next 'date'. Anything I do is going to make or break us. If I get horny and make a move again, she'll be expecting it and probably brush me off instantly! So what do I do?

I know this is a very long post, but hopefully some of you have read it and could give some advice.

Thanks!

Dude, just keep escalating. Go farther next time. If she gives you LMR (Last minute resitance) just stop what you're doing get a class of water, go to the bathroom do whatever for a bit and then try to esclate again.

And if she says "Oh I wont have sex till a relationship" just say, "that's fine, I dont have sex until marriage". in a joking way of course or if she says 5 dates say 10 or whatever. ACT LIKE SHE NEEDS TO GET YOU INTO BED not the way around if you get what I mean

Great advice mate!

I don't think I have EVER actually mentioned wanting to have sex with her. Sex has only ever been mentioned by her, even prior to meeting, she mentioned sex.
I've been horny and flirted with her, but never implied I wanted sex.

I might be able to use that to my advantage too? Sure I went sexual by touching her, but I didn't push for anything else that night, even when she was ushering me out the door and claiming I wouldn't have sex with her. Hmmm

yeah, dude, you're actions are implying sex, but whenever she brings it up just be like "Who says I wanted to have sex?" Give her a strange look

First off, realise the mistakes you made so that you don't repeat them

6-7 times just watching TV? Gay

Asking for a cuddle? Gay

Fondling her boob? You're 31 you say?

Excuse your roaming hand? Seriously?

"I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable"? WHAT THE FUCK?

There is no spark because although she was initially attracted to you enough to forgive your mistakes, she RIGHTLY sees you as a weak willed little boy who she can walk all over. She wants a MAN who knows what he wants, isn't afraid to take it, doesn't apologise for his desires, doesn't take her shit, is a challenge, has other options, and is comfortable being himself.

What you did well (accidentally) is freeze her out initially, then say "don't get any ideas" to her. This falsely disqualified you and make you look like a challenge, so she chased you, then you became a choad.

The obvious strategy is therefore to freeze her out again, game other women, and re-engage after a week or two. Kino escalate, use push-pull, and freeze-out to combat LMR.

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Awesome reply, thanks! Certainly a lot to think about and correct!

When we first started talking, she was moaning about players and generally man hating. So I think the main reason I took the approach I did, is to NOT appear like a player, be someone she's not expecting as she's always been played. However, the way you've pointed out my game, it does indeed shout wuss and shows I have given all control to her.

She said she can see I'm not a player. So surely, this is a good thing as now I can learn and use player tactics as she won't be expecting it? It clearly worked the other day as she was not expecting me to do that.

I'd like to know how and when to try and touch her again, aside from the cuddling. I get the freezing out thing, just not sure how to approach her sexually next time.
I fully expect her to give me a LMR now!
What do I say if she says no? As in something cocky?
What do I do if she pushes me away? Aside from the freezing!

Rejection is not the time to play C&F. If she says no, just say ok, break kino, talk about something else, then re-engage later.

Good kino escalation is when you kino, then break, then escalate again, then break again, etc. Always be the first to break, and the re-engage. This makes her WANT you to keep touching her, rather than it feeling like you're pushing her for sex.

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Why does it make so much sense when someone tells you the answers yet you never come to those conclusions yourself?

Thanks again!

UPDATE! Changed my game and nailed her!

This all happened the next time I met her after writing this thread. So I took all what I'd learned and changed everything.

Made myself a little more difficult to arrange the next meet with. So I didn't appear like I wanted to grope her again or appear like a clingy girl.

Changed scenery, we met up earlier in the day and went to the beach and hung out and watched the sunset. The whole time I kino escalated the hell out of her. I didn't need to freeze her out or anything though, it flowed really well and she responded smoothly. Even had her grabbing for my hand and brushing herself and nudging into me and forcing me to put my arms around her like she was trying to hit on me.

Went for a nice meal after the beach and she even picked up the bill! I didn't feel comfortable with this but she insisted, but maybe my game was too good. She said I could pick up the next one so that's a good sign in itself. She wants a next time and she's willing to meet me half way! Something a lot of girls aren't willing to to do!

Went back to hers with a bit of messing around etc. It got late and we were got both sleepy and being a longish drive back to mine, I said I could always stay. This gave her a lot of power but I didn't know how to get that result without directly putting that question to her. Can anyone give advice on this aspect?

She agreed and despite there being a large couch, spare rooms etc she made no hint I was going anywhere but her bed! Result!
Made some jokes about which side I was allowed to sleep on etc and she went to the bathroom to change and I got in the bed. She came back not looking particularly sexy I hasten to add but whatever.
She grabbed my arm so we started cuddling. A made a few comments about not wanting her to get frisky etc to which she said it didn't matter because she still wasn't going to have sex with me.. I laughed and said "What makes you think I'd let you have sex with me?" This was the clincher! She was quite taken aback by that and that in itself changed the game.
We cuddled again and whilst I had an uncontrollable stiffy I kept moving myself away from her making out that she was trying to brush into me everytime she or I moved.
Wasn't long before some rubbing was going on and then some grinding.
I started running my hands over her teasing her. Gradually moved down to between her legs without actually touching her full on until she was gagging for it. I eventually slipped my hand inside her knickers and started to finger and rub her. She had an orgasm which was quite a result! She appeared to be holding back from full sex but I don't really know. After her orgasm she wanted to give me a blowjob, I made out that she didn't have to! Standing by my "Who said I'd sleep with you" comment but I let her anyway.
It wasn't long before I pushed her off and started playing with her again, then rubbing my dick over her panties and pretending to penetrate her whilst the panties ere in the way to tease her more. She got frustrated with this and pulled them to the side so I slipped my boy inside.
We were at it for hours and we both had to be up early for work.

She had 4 hours.

I had no sleep whatsoever because I've never known anyone to snore so fucking loudly in my life!

Lets face it you got laid by pure dumb luck. Considering all the AFCness you displayed towards this girl. Doing things like appologizing for groping her???. Pretending like didn't want sex those 6 or 7 dates?? You've got to start acting like a man. You're lucky this girl gave you a million chances to get to right.

I hope this girl sticks around because if you do the same thing with the next girl its game over.

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Very interesting, I have lots to learn!!! Now I hope someone reads my big long post lol so I know what I need to correct and work on.