The current topic of my struggles is in regards to the very high number of "we're better as friends" texts I'm getting after first dates. The girls that I meet tend to be strictly from PoF and Tinder aged 18-27 (I'm 25) although I recently bit the bullet and paid for a month of Match.com. Getting people to agree to meet is always a challenge, but I'm growing extremely discouraged and disappointed in my results after first dates.

I know I need to have that "on to the next one" mentality after a hottie tells me she isn't interested. But it makes me wonder what about my routine is turning all of these girls off.

Here is how I plan all of my first dates. I've had success in the past with this method including a ton of lays but I'm open to suggestions.

I always suggest a low key bar for drinks or if the girl is under 21 we get coffee. I offer to pick them up to be a "gentleman" (easier to make out after the date). Generally girls will want to meet me at the location which is fine.

We meet, I keep things lighthearted and fun. I find out fun things about the girl. I have a good DHV story about the "last girl i met online" who bought me a gift, told her parents about me, and had all of her friends add me on Facebook after the first date. This story is gold because it always cracks the girl up and hopefully subconsciously plants the seed that girls who go out with me really do like me. I've told this story easily over 100 times (it's actually true too)

I have a few little games I play like the "5 lies" game to get the girl to buy me another drink or other dumb little tricks. Usually this seems to go well but I wonder if it makes me seem a little cheesy and like too much of a tryhard.

In general I smile a lot, act very confident, and keep the girl genuinely laughing. If the moment is right, I'll kiss the girl right at the bar. We usually have 2-4 drinks. (If the girl says she's good after one drink, chances are she's not interested).

I then walk the girl to her car and kiss her. I always make sure to get the kiss to leave no doubt in the girl's mind and end the date on that note. If she is receptive, we'll make out a little. If not, just light smooching will do.

If all goes according to plan, the girl will text me later that night or the next morning.

But my success rate has been pitiful lately. I've had about 10 over the past two weeks of this mold and almost every single one has seemed to go great but the girl then fizzles. She either completely cut off all contact with me after the date, or wait for me to text her and hit me with the "I had a great time, but I think we would be better as friends!" And then there's a few who carry on lukewarm conversation and flake on any plans I try to make for the future.

What do you think the problem could be? I'm 5 foot 9 and 135 pounds... so maybe I look skinnier in person than my pics and it turns the girl off? Although my conversation routine feels very natural and fluid to me (I've done this drill so many times), maybe the girls can see through it.

It's frustrating because I am so tempted to ask these girls the ultimate AFC question, "What did I do wrong?" I know this is completely anti-PUA and no girl would even answer honestly, but I wish I could grow from all these failures rather than feel stuck in the mud.

"strictly from PoF and Tinder aged 18-27 (I'm 25)" is a pretty narrow demographic

Are you averse to meeting women offline?

What's your end-goal/objective with these women?

In general, as long as I bang them once I consider it a personal success. There are a few truly hot women I would consider getting more serious with if the connection was there, but as you can see it never really gets to that point.

And honestly I meet my girls online because it's just so much easier for the type of person I am. I don't have a social circle to speak of so if I try to go out it is alone. I've tried daygame and nightgame sarging briefly and have never been laid once from it. On the contrary I've had sex with well over 100 women from online.

The frustrating thing is, even though you might think that online-dating women are un-dateable and will never settle it just isn't true. Most of them are pretty desperate and will definitely commit to (or hook up with) a high value guy. It's just all about hooking them and heating up that flakey lukewarm interest that everyone starts with.

Most of the people I meet from online have met guys from the apps before and admitted to dating them continuously (despite fatal character flaws). So again, it's really all on me for not doing my job and peaking their interest on the date.

You say your strategy was pretty solid before. What's changed since then?

I suspect part of this is just pure statistical noise.
If you've banged 100 women from online, you've probably had at least 300 dates, yes?

If your normal odds are 1/3, what are the odds you go 0/10? Pretty good, when you're up in the 100s.
Just divide it each time. Chance of going 1/6? It will happen .67/3. Or, %22 of the time. 1/9? %7.5 of the time. 0/9? %2.5 of the time.
Statistically, you would EXPECT to go 0/10 about every 60 dates.
You'd also expect to go 5/5 about every 240 times.

I'd worry more if this continues for another string of dates. Statistical noise is often mistaken for patterns.

P.S. With Valentine's Day quickly approaching, some of them may be hoping for a boyfriend they can tell their friends about. That could be further mucking with this.

_________________
RSDTyler

the "we are better as friends" is a result of coming off too needy and desperate.
Don't worry about relationship titles just take girls out and show them a good time and they will want to see you again. I can tell you really over think everything just live in the moment for a minute. Meditation really helped me with this problem as I am a huge thinker (most guys on here are).

Be interesting and be interested.

edit: just wanted to say a couple more things that came to mind.

im 6 ft and 125 pounds so i fall under the light weight category as well but I own it (while i am working to put on weight) and Ill even say something about it at the right time as a way of opening up, it shows I am not full of myself and that I am working towards something too. Honestly though its not a huge deal, girls still rush to take my shirt off during those special moments to see my abs from the modeling I do my ribs never scared anyone away.


its okay to ask what you did wrong but don't sound desperate, just say hey I realize things didn't work out and I want to improve can you tell me what it was that turned you off from me? Ill do this to girls who even turn me down on an approach and that extra window of conversation can really turn it around to the point I can take the girl out still.

if a girl says she just wants to be friends respond with "me too! I am not really looking for a relationship at this point in my life so I am glad you feel the same way!" and then continue to be her friend, don't buy her stuff and treat her like a date though be her friend and she will start to want you again.

Thanks for the responses.

I'm surprised if I come off as needy and desperate on these dates because I do what seems to me like a great job of being cocky and funny. I don't talk about wanting a relationship and I don't pester the girl about seeing me again. I just keep things loose, keep the conversation going, and keep the girl laughing.

The very disturbing trend I'm noticing is that the girls who are 5s and 6s respond very favorably to my routine. Those tend to be the ones I can bang on the second date as part of a "movie night". But that always leaves me feeling crappy for settling for sub par girls. It's the 7s, 8s, and 9s who... despite me using the exact same routine, don't seem interested.

That leads me to wonder if it's a physical limitation. Similar to how ugly obese people tend to do poorly in job interviews, women may automatically assume negative things about me because I'm average-below average height and skinny. But then again I'm good looking enough to secure the date and my profile pictures are all recent and true to my actual appearance. So maybe it is the action?

There are short ugly scary looking dudes that succeed (see arash) but they are confident in themselves. You have to be secure with yourself and your technique (you seem confident in the technique not yourself) maybe work on being secure with who you are.

It makes me wonder if the women smell my insecurity somehow. Maybe my posture isn't good or something.

Sometimes I make fun of myself if the situation calls for it. Like for example the other night a girl I was with asked me if I thought some guy across from the bar was gay. And I said "probably not, it's not like he has his ears pierced" (my ears are pierced). It seemed funny in the moment and made the girl laugh, but may have sent out a feminine vibe about myself.

Another girl mentioned that the last guy she dated was 6 foot 3 and really muscular. I smiled and said, "So that's why you're out with me... for my body. I feel so used!" Again, it got a laugh but maybe it just highlighted to her that I don't have the kind of body that she feels she deserves.

Update! I decided to ask a particular girl for feedback just now and got a scathing response. Background- this girl is a 20 year old high-7 or low-8 I went out for coffee with a few weeks ago. We met on Tinder. The texting conversation was great leading up to the date. She initiated a lot of it and wasn't afraid to talk sexually.

A few days after the date I texted her and got no response. I followed up with a restart text last week and no response either. So I just asked her if she could explain what went so wrong for future reference. This is what she said word for word:

"Explain? I don't owe you anything you are not someone all mighty. I didn't like you and I can't believe you kissed me and honestly you creeped me out a lot. You were way to cocky like you knew the world just because you are 25 (which I didn't believe for one second). You have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know me. Thanks for the coffee. I will block your number if you text me one more time. Learn how to take the hint."

So, there's a lot to take away from that. Maybe I come on too strong with the negging/DHV/cockiness even though I would have to think long and hard about what to change. The most hurtful thing is that she said I creeped her out. That just makes me feel like I really have a lot further to go if I want to get with truly hot women and not be condemned to a fattie or a homely chick.

Deep down, I feel like she may have just been turned off by me physically so instead of being charming/witty/aggressive I was rude/cocky/creepy.

Finally, even though she was upset I kissed her I don't think I'll remove that from my routine. It seems like she probably didn't like me anyways so it's not like the kiss changed anything.

Thoughts?

move on to new girls. Not everyone will like you, that said if this is a common response it is worth taking a look at yourself. I would try to talk less and let the girl talk more. It is hard to critique your technique without seeing it tbh but if I had to guess your insecurities with yourself are being hidden behind a mask of a holier than thou attitude, but I could be wrong.

Wow. I think you may be the first person I have ever seen, with a lay count over 100 doing all of those things.

Sinn speaking on these three tactics and their overuse
https://soundcloud.com/the-pu-shrine/reaction-seeking

A great article on reaction seeking.

_________________
RSDTyler

I would like to hear some tips for online dating game. Im getting diddly in the way of first dates, haha.

well.. im no master by any means, especially at getting laid.. but I would say my first dates are close to 100% succesful (ie follow up date) with girls whom I want them to be. My approach is to have no game at all. Just be conversational and dont try too hard. Make good eye contact. Be positive. Make them laugh. Be down to earth. Dont be afraid of showing flaws (as long as they are not objectionable flaws). I just find over time all the good conversation topics build up in your head and you dont even think about them. DO some reserach for interesting emotionally driven conversation topics.. what were you like as a child compared to now? Why is it about you that made you want to do this/that? I dunno..just stuff that shows you're deeply interested in what makes them tick as a person. I also bring up dating etc but just to get an idea of where they are at.. over analyitical tinder convo getting tiring imo.

Maybe get slightly touchy if AND ONLY IF its feels right. Keep it to a few drinks. Kiss at the end ONLY IF IT FEELS RIGHT.. otherwise just get close, stare them in the eyes as you say goodnight and make them wait.

I get a 2nd date the majority of the time. I often fuck that up, but that's usually for different reasons. In my book 1st dates are a fucking walk in the park.

A girl would never ever write that to you just because she wasn't physically attracted to you.. that would be sickening. The 50 Shades of Grey guy gets away with being cocky.. then rest of us non-10/10 hot billionaires dont. She wrote it because you were trying way too hard, you are playing too much game and not being yourself. It's made her uncomfortable and then to top it off you forced yourself on her physically. Just tone it down and forget about "game"... that's my opinion. An approach I kind of have these days is to try to forget the person that I'm meeting for the first time is even a date.. I approach it with the casual friednly nature of just meeting a mate for a beer. Try it..suddenly all the pressures off. The only difference is that I maintain more of a genuine flirtatious warmth (eye contact, smiles etc) to increase the connection.