Hi Tripp,

I am a newbie here and just wanted to say, I really like your advice.

My question: Can you use push pull in lieu of negging? Let's say you can't come up with something clever to say? Does push pull through body language, or walking off and talking to someone else, then returning, do the same thing?

No it doesn't really accomplish the same thing. As you are probably aware the idea of a neg is to make her feel that she's in some way done something to lower her social value. In every interaction with women when you approach a set you social value will be less than hers typically. So lets say you start at social value 3 and she's at 8. Through a few slight negs and you telling DHV stories you are lowering her value and raising yours until you're on the same level in her eyes.

I don't feel that rolling off or the other things you described would lower her value. So, no it doesn't do the same things as negging. However, in some ways moving off can raise your value since you aren't appearing needy.

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

NOTE: I am Archaeoptryx, a PUA winging with "Toots McGee", so these are my thoughts, not toots'

I disagree with JSmooth on this point. "Negging" and push pull identical at their core---they are essentially both forms of breaking rapport at their core. I should point out at this point, that my ideology differs from MM. Breaking rapport communicates to a girl that 1) you are willing to let her go 2) you are not putting effort into trying to get something out of her 3) she is going to have to chase you to re-establish rapport.---or lose you

I find it interesting that you assume you enter the set with a lower value than the girl. Perhaps this is reflective of your view of yourself, and something you need to address to up your game. True confidence is going up to a girl knowing you're 'value' is higher than hers and she has to DHV to you (qualify) in order to talk to you.

By DHVing to a woman, you are essentially qualifying to her--you are trying to present yourself in a way that gets her approval. Fuck that. She needs to present herself to me in a way that gets my approval. And the idea that you need to lower a woman's value in order to get her to like you is just plain stupid, IMO. If anything you should be seeking to RAISE her value. Introduce her to friends, give her guinuine compliments (that she has earned), but also break rapport so that she doesn't feel you are trying to get something out of her.

If you feel you are entering ANY set with a social value (whatever the hell that means) of 3, then you are not being social enough. Go talk to everyone, become friends with several people at the venue--know more people than her---that way when you talk to her, you are not coming off as a guy that hits on her, but rather a guy who is talking to everyone.

Sorry J Smooth, but you're completely wrong on this one.

Archaeoptryx

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You're like Good Luck Chuck, except they all become famous!

Firstly Archaeoptryx, I HIGHLY suggest you reconsider how you phrase your advice and telling people that they are "wrong", because as I'm sure you're aware (due to your mentioning of not using the MM model), there is more than one way to go about being a PUA. Sure, there are some things that you can say are "wrong", but they're few and far between, as you can basically act just about any way you like, just as long as you are doing things that attract women. Some guys will try a method and it doesn't work for them at all, but other guys do it quite well.

Personally, I use push/pull, but not in the early stages of a pickup, because unless you have built rapport, your push/pull isn't going to do anything aside from eject you from the set and most likely make it very difficult to get back in. Now, that's a general rule, not saying that you CAN'T use push/pull right off the bat, cause I have and it has been successful, but generally speaking that's what I've found.

Negging and push/pull do act in SIMILAR ways, but not the exact same, which is why it is important to know when to use which. Negging can work great right off the bat, I can walk up and say, "My god girl, you've got the most amazing dart throwing technique I've seen! You've got to play me a round, cause I broke my hand a while back and this is the first time I've found someone with an equal skill level!" Now that's gonna get her talking right away and maybe she'll hit me and get some kino going. If instead I were to walk up and say, "Wanna play a game of darts? Alright, I'll be back in a bit." She's probably not gonna wait around for me to come back, cause I haven't done anything to pull her into my frame and hook her.

Now, if she does something that I don't like, depending on my style, I could either neg her, or push/pull her and have basically (note the use of that word) the same effect. Say she talks with her mouth full, I could say, "I'm enjoying the conversation, but I understand you better when you swallow first sweetheart " and she'll probably comply by not doing it anymore and trying to get back on my good side. I could alternately start talking with my mouth full in order to push her away a bit and hope she realises what's going on and why I'm doing it, or if the venue was right, say, "I'll let you finish your meal, then you can come find me."

Now, all of those, will probably result in her being polite and not talking with her mouth full, but it's gonna leave a different impression on her depending on how you go about it. Hell, there's millions of different ways to push pull and neg, so even once you pick which one you want to do, you still have the syntax to worry about, because even just the facial expression you make as you're walking away, or the tone in your voice when you neg her will change the outcome entirely.

Think about what response you want to evoke in your target and then choose your actions based upon that.

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

Archaeoptryx, I can appreciate that you have a different view than I do of the attraction phase. I am an advocate for the Mystery Method. It's differences in style like ours that makes the forum great, because people can get a feel for different styles.

However, I have been using this method successfully without any problem. Other PUAs and Mods from this very forum have seen me work in field, and have nothing bad to say about my "game." I don't feel that I have a lower value than any woman, and I don't have a frame problem. As I was saying as a general rule of thumb women tend to have more social value by default then men.

Next time you have a difference of opinion that is fine. Although, to tell someone they are completely "wrong". There are multiple ways of doing things. Your style is different from mine and if that's work for you then rock on!

PEACE

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Archaeoptryx here again...
I'm confused. Please reconsile these two statements
It should be obvious that anything posted on here is written from a subjective point of view. There are AFCs that think that PUA methods are wrong and there are MM guys that think parts of my game are wrong. Anything I write should be taken as my subjective view, but in this case I stand by my assersion that you are completely wrong. Ill try again to explain my thoughts.

We can both agree that qualifying to a girl or seeking her approval is an undersirable quality...a DLV as you'd call it. And yet, but telling her DHV stories, you are doing just that. You are trying to 'demonstrant' higher value to a girl in the hopes that she will like you and fuck you. You've doing nothing but qualifying to the girl, trying to impress her. Does brad pitt run around trying to DHV himself to women?? Of course not...

On occasion this will work because the girl will not know what you are really doing--which in my opinion is nothing more than the approval-seeking AFC who buys her drinks.

A PUA friend of mine recently made a profound comment about just this type of thing. There are two ways to get an amazing woman...

1) become an amazing manipulator
2) become an amazing man

Clearly we're using different methods here, but all I want to know from you is how DHVing to a woman not approval seeking & qualifying?

Archaeoptryx d'Anconia

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You're like Good Luck Chuck, except they all become famous!

In a way telling DHV stories to flip the attraction switches of pre-selection by women, leader of men, other qualities is a way of qualifying. Women are naturally attracted to these qualities in a men per the Mystery Method. Hence why the stories are told, because you can't always be displaying these qualities at the exact second you meet a women somewhere.

Too bad we aren't all Brad Pitt with his success and well know charisma. We don't have to be either. We both know that. I agree that changing your life so that you don't have to pretend you have these qualities is the best. Although, I could be the CEO of a huge company and you'd never know it. Brad Pitt has the luck of being on screen and being in a more visible career that myself and 95% of the population.

Remember that the idea with Mystery Method is she qualifies back to you in the next step. I certainly see your point with telling DHV stories as a way of qualifying. As I said before this is done through stories because you may not always have a women on your arm, or your latest movie coming out to DHV you.

PS. To clarify the Above statement you called out. I don't have any problem with women. I do not feel I have a lower value than any woman. The other comment I am saying the typical AFC feels his value is lower than a womans in any given social interaction.

Hope everything is crystal clear for you now.

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

You shouldn't percieve your own value to be below that of a woman, but when you enter a set, they are will almost always consider your value to be below theirs. Then as you neg them, DHV and show them you're a good guy, you should end up on the same level, if not higher, in short time.

DHVing, doesn't mean you are sitting there qualifying to everything she asks you, what you are doing, is just being a friendly person, telling some fun and funny stories, making people laugh, showing pre-selection and thus, people see you as having higher value. Your other option, is to walk in and hope that by talking about boring stuff and not telling stories (who doesn't tell stories when they talk to people in a social SPAM, it's just absurd not to) they will be attracted to you by being just some other guy.

You tell stories to share your personality with people so that you can create a bridge into their world and build rapport with them. In turn, they are going to tell stories back to you, this is the way human interaction tends to take place when meeting new people for the first time. Don't believe me? Well I just got a new roommate 2 days ago and every time I see him, we do nothing but exchange stories in order to get to know each other.

If you expect people to open up to you without you first opening up and sharing a part of yourself with them, you will be highly dissappointed. Consider this part of the 90/10 rule, where you need to assume responsibility for 90% of the conversation for the first few minutes of the conversation and unless you're telling stories that show you have value, then she's not gonna be interested, cause what else are you gonna be talking about?

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"The 'Brick Walls' are there to allow you to prove how badly you want something!" ~ Randy Pausch

~ Rye

First of all, Brad Pitt has autmoatic status because of his career. He's in a high profile career. Irrelevant example. A guy's status to a girl is what she PERCIEVES his status to be. Brad Pitt has an automatic advantage because his status is percieved as being high already, because of his high profile career. If you or I walk up to a girl, she has no idea what our status is unless something tips her off to it, such as our DHV stories. You can call that qualifying if you like, but if that's the case, Brad Pitt has also qualified because he's put out movies that happened to be very successful. So, what's the real difference there? Ok, so you're saying that "stating" your status is just like throwing money at women? You can think that way, but I will tell you from personal experience that it's not the same thing. I have status with women, and I've had my own group of women hanging around me at clubs. And they've heard some DHV stories about me, not only from me, but also from my partner, and they love me, but they had an AFC throw money out the window to buy them drinks. They didn't ask me to do it, and they knew I wouldn't anyway. So, who had the higher status there? And why? On your second point . . . we go back again to the core of the woman's perception of the man's status. If she is going to think he's an amazing man, she either has to perceive that he already has high status from one thing or another, or she has to see that he's a great person and a party in his own world, which would include . . . telling stories because that's entertainment.

Now, how is this approval seeking and qualifying any different from the example you tried to make relevant?