What do you think about girls who as soon as you start chatting to them start kino, standing close to you, touching your arm or if you're sitting next to them leaning right up close to you, touching legs, arms, shoulders etc.

I'm assuming this isn't an IOI as it's given too easily and you haven't done anything to earn it, but does it indicate that she immediately sees you as more of a potential friend as she has no interest in building tension with you?

My gut feeling is that immediate and very familiar kino from a girl makes me feel like I'm being friendzoned, but what do you guys think? Have you had good experiences that started this way?

It means she's DTF. F-close her immediately or waste a perfect opportunity.

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“Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!” ~Audrey Hepburn

puaninja has a valid point.

However I would like to add that it may also mean she is a validation freak who flirts with virtually everyone outrageously and loves keeping a group of orbiters who want to fuck her in the loop by being overtly affectionate with each of them.

Don't fall into this category and you will be fine.

Yes, that is a fair theory. I'd love to believe DTF but it doesn't always feel quite like that. I might expect DTF to be accompanied by other IOIs or more seductive body language, or an attempt by her to create some kind of "us bubble". However when it's just very familiar kino with otherwise friendly conversation and body language, I'm not sure what to make of it.

Rough Operator, I'm sure you've heard girls say "oh I'm just being friendly, I don't know why guys have to read so much into it", are these the kind of girls you have in mind who like to keep a bunch of orbiters around? Or do you believe that a girl would ever be friendly in this way (immediate kino) because she just IS?

Yeah I was seeing a girl just like this once, she had loads of orbiters that she routinely lead on and she lied to them about me and lied to me about them so I dumped her. She would do things like sit on another guy's lap in front of me, then when I pulled her up on it and told her that it disrespects me, she would do the whole "I'm just being friendly."

She was low self esteem and the only way she could feel good about herself was by using male attention, not as a means to an end i.e. a relationship, but as an end in and of itself.

I managed to bang her by not getting sucked into all that shit and being challenging.

See the difficulty I find with this kind of thing is the fact it kills tension before it can build. If you want to appear "high value" or a guy who's not easy to get then you might say something like "hands off the merchandise" when she first touches you, but it's difficult to say that when it's at the very start of the interaction as it just seems unfriendly and wierd.

Comments like this which push her away rely on some kind of sexual tension having been built first, as does kino escalation. You build sexual tension through words and then relieve it gradually through physical escalation, then pull away to build a bit more tension. Too much kino too soon can interfere with the natural tension building which is why I'm sure no PUA goes up and puts his arm straight round the girl. Any kind of kino escalation without sexual tension being present is just going to get you labelled creepy, but that's exactly what the girl is doing to you in this situation.

Even reciproacting this kind of kino feels wierd to me, because I still feel a bit like the creep who's escalating without sexual tension, but to kino her back even more would definitely feel creepy to me.

As I said, other IOIs or seductive body language being present would change the matter, but when it's JUST kino and nothing else, this is how I tend to feel about the situation.

I find it very hard to believe that a girl will just start touching you unless she found you at least a little attractive and had some interest. I would never take it as an indicator that she wants to just be friends.

I find it very hard to believe that a girl who just met you will start touching you unless she found you at least a little attractive and had some interest. I would never take it as an indicator that she wants to just be friends.

Ok, so I guess it comes down to your environment. Are you in a place where you can be alone with her and have sex? If not, then it doesn't really matter if she gives you every IOI known to mankind, because you simply won't be able to take it to the next level. Clearly there is "something" there, but you can only turn that into sex if you have the ability to isolate her and fuck.

I mean, guys spend a lot of time just to get to the point you are at. You are past the comfort and attraction phase of qualification. Now you need to move into seduction. You need to find out if her flirtations are just false IOIs or legitimate ones. According to Sinn's methodology you can start saying sexual things to her. Not creepy things, but demonstrate with words that you are A)sexually confident and B) interested in her sexually. If this is just some flighty attention whore who flirts with every swinging dick she meets, you need to find that out quick so you don't waste time on a cock tease.

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“Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!” ~Audrey Hepburn

She's touching you, she's at very least not repulsed by you.

i would highly agree with puaninjas comment that it depends on environment...if im at a party (where most of my interaction with women occurs, at least when im trying to pick up) and i make a joke and as she is laughing she puts her hand on my arm or chest i definitely take it as an IOI...i like to neg her afterwards or roll off a bit...address the rest of the set for a bit, then get back to my target (who may have targeted me ) re-establish kino....isolate...escalate....close.

This...go for it!

I like this answer, thanks.

To fill you in further, both these girls were at the same bar where there are LOTS of hot girls. Lots of them have boyfriends and the ones that do tend to sit around in an aloof manner. One of them was introduced to me by my mate and he gave me a great reference and told her what a great guy I was. She was grinning loads and standing right up close to me so our arms were touching and talking enthusiastically about how much she loves travel. I know this all sounds good but she just seemed quite innocent (I know none of them are) and I guess I tend to look for something more explicitly sexual as an IOI. I think your approach is right though Ninja, but what sort of comments do you think would be good in this situation? I can think of any number of crap ones, but what would work well and help establish if there's a sexual interest there without coming across as "I'm bored of all this talk about travel and I want to fuck you?" (or would that maybe be a good comment )

The other girl is a friend of one of the aloof ones which is why I was quite surprised how friendly she was. I'm used to sitting down next to them and having to work hard to get any conversation out of them but this one opened up straight away. I controlled the frame by immediately saying "so we went to this tattoo convention last weekend, it was great, blah blah blah" and she listened and was interested and was leaning against me a bit. Again not looking or acting very sexual, but as HeavyRota8tion put it...
I think perhaps I need more of the "assume it's always on" attitude and to Always Be Escalating. Perhaps I've got a bit psyched out by the environment as there are LOTS of hot girls there and fucking up in an obvious way with one would make an impression on the others. This place is a goldmine for anyone with game so I don't want to use it for practice and fuck things up so that I can't hit it up later when I'm really on top of things!

But yeah, suggestions for sexual comments to test whether these are real IOIs would be MUCH appreciated...

Yes sir, you hit the nail on the head with the self-advice.

Look at it this way, IOIs can be very hard to read. Some girls will do them intentionally just to fuck with you, sometimes they'll be social and you'll interpret them as sexual, other times vice versa. What's EASY to read are IODs. When a girl walks away from you when you move closer, when she cringes at your touch or slaps your face its pretty obvious isn't it?

The simplest thing to do is just forget IOIs, assume they're there and escalate. She'll let you know when you've gone too far and you can adjust from there.