A few weeks back I got the number of the hb who works at my local coffee shop, I attempted to get her out for a drink but she had exams on at the time. A couple of weeks ago I texted her to say I wanted to take her for that drink now that she had finished her exams. She texted me back from her friends phone as she didn’t have any credit and said that that sounds good and she'd top up tomorrow and text me...she never did. When I saw her at work a few days later she said she hadn't top up her credit so I decided to leave it with her and put her on the back burner for the time being as she flaked.
When I saw her next at the shop she had just finished her shift and by her own accord she came and sat with me for an hour and we talked. Over the next week she was quite friendly when I saw her and we even sent a few texts to each other where I teased her with a running theme and a nickname I've given her, which seemed to go down very well. Sensing some interest from her I decided to tell her I was taking her out for a drink when I was in the shop last Friday, she suggested Monday, her day off, and I told her I'd have to call her as I wasn't sure what time I was finishing work on that day yet.
Come Sunday I texted her to arrange picking her up on the Monday but again she didn't respond...So I decided to leave it with her again, somewhat confused with her odd behaviour.
I went to the coffee shop this Friday afternoon, I'm often in there like clockwork on Friday's. She was in there and sitting by herself, all dressed up, and on her day off. We made eye contact and said hello, she then apologised for not texting me back, saying she had no credit again.... I have just recently read magic bullets again and with things more fresh in my mind I didn't quiz her on why she didn't just reply on facebook to me, instead I acted indifferent and said no worries. She asked me if I wanted to sit with her, but I freezed her out and said I was going to sit outside the shop so I could have a smoke, and see you later.
After about 10mins she came outside the shop, found a chair and came and sat next to me. I again acted indifferently at first and paid more attention to my friend whom had come to join me. I did some story telling, DHV..ing and then the subject turned onto people who have had sex changes. She mentioned she used to be a tom boy at which point I teased her by leaning in to see if she had a an Adams apple and told her I actually did think you were a boy the first time I saw you. She laughed at this and asked if I was joking, my only response was to laugh with a sly smile. I teased her a little more with some push and pull and we talked for nearly half an hour until my other friend arrived and she went back into the shop leaving her seat for him.
She came out again about 10mins later and sat on a chair next to me by the next table along, and this time armed with one of her work colleagues. I freezed her out again when she turned to talk with me, I finished my conversation with my friend first before turning to answer her question she interrupted me with. After a short while she went back into the shop with her work colleague.
A short while later I went into the shop to order some take away drinks and chatted with the staff at the counter like I usually do. Within a minuet she bounced out of nowhere to stand next to me at the counter and involved herself in the conversation I was having. I asked her what she was doing hanging around the shop on her day off, she said waiting for her house mate to finish so they could go home together. She added she was working early in the morning so I made a mental note to avoid going in the shop tomorrow.
Now what do I do from here? How do I move this forward? I don't want to ask her out for a drink again only to get the same response, I really don't get her behaviour, she'd make an excellent poker player, nor can I find any info of similar situations from other PUA's. She seems keen yet hard to get out for a drink yet quite happy to come and sit with me for long periods of time when we don't even really know each other. I know that she knows I like her and I should probably point out her origin is Eastern European so culture could explain some of the odd behaviour. She is quite young, 19 and I'm 7 years older so I don't know if this could be a problem for her.
Any thoughts and advice is most welcome,
Regards, Stormfever.[/b]

Sounds like she may be a little conservative and wants to stay within her comfort zone. Change the meetup to an outdoor activity in the day time? Paddle boarding? 'Going for drinks' may be new to her and she may be nervous about doing that. If she's 19, places like here in Vancouver is the age you are allowed into a bar.

Outdoor activities. YEAH!

_________________
"The first thing a god masters, is itself"

how much rapport do you have with her?, do you text often?, does she initiate?

idea one) ok, so, if you don't care one way or the other and aren't feeling needy for this, then I suggest giving her one more shot, either call her voice to voice, or ask her out in person, do not make the plans for a future time, right then and there, if she absolutely won't do it right then and there, eliminate the excuses before the happen, get her to qualify the shit out of the meetup

''I'd love to at Xtime but my friend also wants to hang out then, are you sure you are going to make it?'', ''does your phone have minutes this time?'', ''I'd love to but you probably won't even make it out to hang out so never mind''

she either qualifys herself for you, or she does not, if she does not, she obviously isn't very interested and invested in the idea of meeting up with you

idea two) if you are starting to really think about this girl and you really want to get her and this is important to you, stop talking to her for 1-2 weeks until you haven't thought about her for a while, give yourself time to emotionally de-tach from the idea of being with her, assume it is over and she just wants to be friends, don't answer her texts, after you have given yourself time to de-tach recontact her, when she asks whats wrong or w/e, just say, ''nothing, just didn't have minutes in my phone'' then go meet other girls, keep her on the back burner, give her a little bit of attention here and there to keep her on a hook, and every now and then invite her out to group activity where you could care less if she comes or not, expect a flake and who cares about her, and if she comes out, game her like you would any other girl

GOOD LUCK

Rather than a night date perhaps a day one would be more comfortable for her.

Something easy and relaxing. meet her after work etc.

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback!!!
Nym I was thinking about getting her out for a day time activity, may try that route and see how it goes.
And Pumpington, I don't text often, very little in fact. I always make a point of sending 1 x at the end of all my messages, she sends me more than 1 in her first text response and when I still send 1 back she mirrors me for the rest of the texts.
Its always me that initiates contact by text but when I'm in the shop its her that will take a break and and come and join me at my table or if she finishes a shift while I'm there she will again come over and join me and not just for a 5min chat, she hangs around!
Its tough to say how much rapport I have, this is what has been so confusing about her behaviour, I really thought I had enough rapport to move forward and get her out on a date, she even seemed keen when I asked her out for a drink but then I get radio silence from her. Yet when I see her in person she often comes over and initiates conversation, or invites me to join her if she's not working and hanging around drinking coffee... which makes me think I must have a good level of rapport with her. Its like some kind of paradox, I'm following the script, feel like I'm getting some interest from her and then her actions aren't congruent with her behaviour!
I should add that she is quite tough to read as well, I think its part of the culture for eastern European women to seem a little cold and poker faced. The only other ioi's I get off her is the big smile I get when she first sees me.
I'm tempted to have one last go at getting her out but how do I do this, with the situation as it is, and not come off looking like a fool or lower my value? I remember hearing from one pua that if she turns you down once then shame on her...twice, then shame on you!
Stormfever

hmm just a shot in the dark, but she is probably just not into you enough, the rapport is probably there, but when a chick is really into you she will start trying to get your attention, either texting you often, or doing what ever she can to be in contact with you, the rapport and comfort is more like ohhh I know that guy, I can talk to him, this is the connection you are looking for, this is what makes chicks comfortable with being around you and hanging out, but if the frame is not necessarily attractive to them, if the frame is non-sexual, they lose interest easy and you can get them out but it remains friend to friend and they will only come out for low investment meetups that are appealing for them, is this girl aware you are sexually interested in her? have you done anything ballsy around her or demonstrated something cool that she seemed to eat up, or flirted around with her? (anything that could really spike her emotions either negatively or positively?) or did you sort of just have the regular get to know you chit chat, that didn't seem to go so bad so you figured you had a chance and asked her out without really being clear with your intent? what is the framework like between you two?

Thanks for the response pumpington...perhaps your right and I need to work on my frame more, I think my indirect frame was good at first, I started a game of holding eye contact and smiling a little suggestively, she would look away but I could see she was still smiling for a time afterwards. She acts now as if she is trying to keep her cool.
I haven’t done anything 'ballsy' as such, she did however seem to eat up the fact I could speak another language when she heard me on the phone the other day, she tried to interrupt my conversation to quiz me on it but Ignored her until I finished and then played it down like it was no big deal!
I get what you say about them trying to get your attention when they are into you, and think this is why I posted in the forum in the first place...I left the coffee shop on Fri somewhat confused as to why she was following me around in/out the shop and initiating contact when she had been cold with me via texts. She was also very dressed up and did try fishing for compliments on this but all I would give her was asking if she had been for a job interview.
She knows I'm interested in her, my friend let it slip to one of her colleagues and it got back to her...that's when she first started going out of her way to chat with me and so I number closed her.
As far as flirting goes I have teased her on more than a few things, and have had one or two shit tests thrown back at me for it. Teasing her isn't that easy if its about her appearance, she seems to take any teasing like this as an insult even when done in a jokey manner.
Here is what I can tell you about the framework between us... I know ive pissed her off once or twice and made her laugh even more than that. She certainly likes to talk a fair bit, although I will generally control the frame/subject we are talking about, she listens before starting to tell me a similar story of her own. She likes to talk about herself rather than ask me questions, I'm aware she is young and at the age where the ego is strong but I wonder if she is trying to DHV and maybe is qualifying herself? She likes to feed me random facts of things she has done or achieved; trying to make herself look good, is this her qualifying? I've made sure any such DHV I've been doing within my frame is on a more subtle level and hidden within stories.
I would like to add that I have kept sexual with her in my frame down to a minimal, near non-existent for two reasons: 1, I only see her at her work place and I don't want to feed her ego if she is just after attention, until at least she gives me a date for my courting efforts.
And 2, I'm aware of the age gap between us and I don't want to scare her off by being too sexual.
Is stepping up the sexual frame something you think I should be doing when she knows I'm already keen?
Hey I remember what you said about asking her out 'there and then', Pumpington...so I should add that I bumped into her this eve randomly whilst on the way to a bar with my friend. I texted her a half hour later and said she should come and join if she was still about...she actually text back this time and although upbeat in her texts she said she was just on her way home, thanked me for the offer and said maybe next time x...
Perhaps I should give up on this one...the longer it goes on, the more I'm thinking about it and that path leads to only bad things.
Thanks again, Stormfever

well, there are just a few issues, the thing is, this chick is at work and she has no out,

girls at work typically will be extra friendly because they are well aware you know where to find them (imagine if they harshly rejected suitors and one of them took it personally)

now, not only that but when tips are involved this can get even worse 10 fold and girls can go out of their way to show interest in order to get tips

in other words, some girls put on a front when they are at work for guys that give them attention,

I am not so curious as to if you can control the frame, more curious as to what the frame is, as in, ''what is the meaning behind the interaction with you two''

from what you wrote, it seems the interaction is friend to friend, and yes I suggest creating a sexual frame, and also passing her front and really getting to know her, also in the future try to demonstrate how solid your confidence is a little better off of first impression, remaining calm and certain of yourself in situations where other guys would get nervous shows a great deal of confidence and can make a great first impression on a girl

but at this point you have asked her out a few times and she flaked, so really she either actually had something come up, or she is just flaking, there are a couple ways to figure that out and if you have enough rapport then it probably isn't the connection, and if she never texts you but you have texted together and have rapport and she is flaking when you ask her out, this suggests to me that she isn't buying what you are selling, (lack of interest), so if you make your intentions more clear, this goes either one way or the other, she either starts being more honest about her intentions with you and lets you know she isn't interested (although she might not, again, she knows that you know where to find her), or she realizes what your intentions are goes on a date with you because now that she knows she might get laid the idea is more appealing to her, rather then just meeting a stranger to hang out for no reason (the more of a connection you have, the less of a stranger you are)

this gets somewhat irritating at a point, and this is why I think it's a waste of time to chase down flakey girls or spend your time on one, because some girls just have a problem saying no, it's stupid, they can't just tell you they are not interested because they don't want to hurt your feelings, so instead they shower in your attention and cut you off at escalation and shut down your frame work, being non compliant, this is why showing your intentions and escalating are important to screen out the girls who are mutually interested, beyond that you can screen even harder for girls the you like, vs lame girls that suck

once you can get over just approaching, you will find it is easier to go out during a day to a spot with lots of girls and talk to 10-50 girls and get new phone numbers to ask out, spending 5-10 minutes a girl, then it is to waste time on one girl who is being non compliant, you don't have to drop any girl from the roster, but spending time on a girl who is wasting your time is just that... a waste of time, you could be texting multiple girls and working on how well you can make a first impression with new girls, instead of beating a dead horse with some chick that has flaked on you multiple times and doesn't even know you are attracted to her (or at least isn't sure what you would be like if she went on a date with you, or isn't interested in a date with you the way you act currently)

girls that are highly interested tend to want to go out with you, and they will text you first, and instead of finding excuses for why they can't come, they find anyway they can to get there, and if they absolutely can't get there, you can bet they reschedule for as soon as possible

so in my opinion, give this girl another shot, tell her you find her attractive and you would like to go on a date with her (either when you go to her work next, or over the phone, don't use text), if she agrees, try to make it right then and there, if she won't do it right then and there, just qualify her to the date, if she flakes again, just walk away, she isn't worth it, if she sends a text telling you she can't make it, don't even respond, just don't talk to her again at least for a month or until you have had sex with a different girl

spend moment to moment working on one girl at a time, put all your effort into it, screen them, if they screen well and are compliant, build a connection with them and invest, if they prove to be a shitty investment, just break it off before you invest too much of yourself and keep meeting new girls

GOOD LUCK

from what i read it seems like you are getting into the borderline of becoming friendzoned. While its going good it doesnt seem you are protraying sexual intrest in her. Yeah she might like you and slowly building rapport with you but if this keeps going, you might get friend zoned. you have to make it known that you are sexually attracted to her or to that nature. If she was really attracted to you, she would of made a move on you aready, she would of kino you, be more suggestive and forward. like pump said. seems like a friendly interaction which will lead into becoming good friends.

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"Live life to the fullest, never look back, remember No regrets" J.f

Hey Pump, thanks for your feedback!
You ask 'what is the meaning behind the interaction between you two', Well speaking for myself and thinking back to our last interaction I was DHV story telling, teasing her, listening to her story telling, threw a couple of opinion questions in there, and talked about travel. She seems happy to then come up with stories of her own along the same subject, the stories we both bounce of each other are often aimed to have a humour value, though she will only start doing this if I tell her something funny first...Actually you know what, your right, I know what I need to do now, thanks! I defo think I need to crank up the sexual in the frame and take your advice with how to go about giving it one more shot.
I'd like to ask you one last question though and appreciate your time and advice, my experience of flaky girls is that they will try and avoid you, if you happen to see them somewhere they are often unreceptive and make excuses to leave you after pleasantries are exchanged, so my question is why would she be flaky with me and then go out of her way to seek out my company? I agree with and am aware that she is at her place of work when I see her, funny thing is though is that half the time she's not working, she's just hanging out there and its always her that will get up from her table and come and join me at mine! It doesn't add up. I know she had a bad experience with a guy before so I'm wondering if it she has some baggage.
And thanks NSR, you say stuff there that I was kind of feeling, always good to hear that to kick my ass into the right gear!
Thanks guys, I'll let you know how it goes! Stormfever

hey man, don't take the sexual stuff too far just because it is called a ''sexual frame'' does not necessarily mean that you are saying things that are incongruent and extremely overtly sexual (although you can and some do and it works for them)

there is a meaning behind the interaction, so for example, If you walk up to some barista, and she says welcome to starbucks may I take your order?, and you say, yes... I'll have a venti mocha coconut frap, and she is all... here you go

the frame is, customer talking to server

now if you go visit some chick you know, joke around all the time, tell stories, but keep it really tame and never so much as tell her she is cute,

the frame is, friend talking to friend

now, if you keep talking to a girl, but you express your sexual intentions towards her (this doesn't necessarily mean being overtly sexual 24/7 in a needy fashion, just being congruent with how you feel), and she is aware of these sexual intentions

the frame is, man with sexual interest, talking to woman

^ this is a sexual frame, you are talking to her, because you are interested in sex, you don't necessarily have to verbalize anything like, OHHH BABY LOOK AT YOUR ASS, WANNA EAT THAT WITH A SPOON, or anything like that, something as simple as I find you attractive and want to take you on a date = frame behind the meetup is sexual, now how ''sexual'' you are can be varying, but what is important is you can remain congruent and non-reactive, with what ever you do

as for your experience with flaky girls, that suggests that you don't talk to too many girls, tons of girls will seem extremely keen in person, girls are usually friendly unless they are in big packs and feeling tough or you are rude and have bad game, you will find if you get more heavy into this and actually make a habit out of cold approaching, that you can make out with a girl all night, and she can want nothing to do with you the next day, you can also have a girl clinging to you like shit in person every time you see her, literally hitting on you, calling you sexy when you see her every time, kissing your cheek, initiating text every day, but still flakes always

anyways, you need to meet more girls dude, yes give this girl a real shot, but you seem highly invested in a girl who hasn't offered up much compliance at all, if all it takes is a giggle and a hey how you doing bob, every time you see a girl to make you focus down on her extremely hard, ignoring the possibility of meeting other girls with one girls as your main focus, then you don't have enough options, and you need to keep working on your self

GOOD LUCK

Thanks again Pump for another great post...much food for thought there for me to digest!! i'm going to take your advice over the coming days/week and let you know how I get on! Thanks, Storm-fever