Im a middle age man desiring to develop rapport with ladies for business and personal purposes.

Im a shy guy, very analytical and sometimes when I talk to a lady they get nervious. If Im talking to an older lady its fine. But younger ladies, when I start talking to them (say college age and ladies in their 20s) they get nervous around me when I talk to them. Im not saying anything terrible. (things like "how are you?" "what do you like to do for fun?" etc. and they answer questions but in time, one can see they want to get away. I dont mind rejection, but I dont want to be accused of anything or get in any trouble which concerns me a lot more than being rejected. I also dont want to be branded a pervert or have a questioned reputation when all Im simply trying to do is simply talk and build rapport.

I feel awkward joining this forum. as I joined, not because I want to pick up ladies, but simply desire the simple steps of building rapport for business purposes, friendship and getting respect from women and I thought you guys would understand women better than I do. I appreciate any advise others may give.

Thanks.

I'm extremely analytical as well, and that's going to be a huge setback for you until you learn how to forgo that trait at the right time. Do not think about what will happen when you approach a woman or about how you're appearing. Live in the moment.

If you feel as though you're coming off as the creepy old guy and seem perverted, you might be doing some awkward things. Can you explain in as much detail as possible how a typical interaction between you and a woman tends to go?

Some basic conversation tools:
Stay calm, keep your voice tone low and the pace slowish.
Don't lean in eagerly.
Smile fondly but only do it when the girl gives you reason for it.

What the perv does:
Weird gesturing, nervous fidgetting and general dramatic speech. Know the way a priest asks you if you're ok with him sucking your dick? Yes? Well that's the perv approach. Do not talk like a priest does.

I can't say I've ever had a priest ask if he can suck my dick. How's that conversation normally go?

Welcome to the forum brother. One of my goals for learning PUA is also for business purposes. I have lots of female friends from all ages and I'm very selective nowadays on who I fuck close.

Rapport building has two components: verbal and non-verbal. What scares most women off when you're trying to build rapport are your non-verbal signals. Direct non-verbal signals that indicate sexual intent will make a woman feel that you're a pervert. This can be as simple as both of your feet directly pointing at her or when your shoulders are in parallel with hers for the first four minutes of your interaction. You may think it isn't sexual, but for women, these simple non-verbal signals indicate sexual intent.

However, once you bridge this four-minute disqualification period (this is evolutionary biology at work by the way and women unconsciously do this), then it will be easy for you to build rapport.

Both verbal and non-verbal rapport can be:

• 1. Wide
  
  2. Deep
  
  3. Wide and Deep

For younger women, wide rapport works best before you can go into any deep rapport with them. A wide rapport via verbal means can go like this:

Wide Rapport Example

You: Oh, look at the lady's hair.

Her: She has a new rebond, I can tell. Her hair is so paper thin.

You: Yeah. She even looks like a paper doll. Do you have Russian wooden dolls?

Her: You mean the big wooden dolls with so many smaller dolls hidden inside a big doll like they're recursive.

You: Yeah. You have one of those?

Her: My brother who went to Russia? He gave me one. I just can't remember what the Russians call them.

You: Stolichnaya.

Her: Crazy. That's vodka.

You: Hmm. Makes me want to have a shot of Absolut. Come. Let's take a shot at Padi's Point.


On the other hand, deep rapport goes something like this:

Deep Rapport Example

Her: I love potatoes.

You: Deep fried or baked?

Her: Any which way. Even mashed, grilled, or whatever.

You: Why? What makes you love potatoes more than, say, beef?

Her: Well, potatoes are blah, blah, blah...

You: I see. So your take on potatoes is that even if they're badly cooked, you still love them.

Her: Hell yeah. I can't live without them. Potatoes rock.

You: I don't find potatoes exciting. I think they suck.

Her: Why do you say so?

You: Because potatoes are blah, blah, blah.

-----------------------

Basically, wide verbal rapport are inter exchanges of a wide variety of topics that rapidly bounce from one topic to another while deep verbal rapport focuses on one topic that can go on for hours. Older chicks love deep rapport a lot. They will talk for hours about their cat or their migraine. On the other hand, building deep rapport with younger chicks bore them to death. This is the most common mistake older guys do when trying to build rapport with younger women. Another common mistake is talking about yourself before you bridge that four minute disqualification period.

For instance, when a woman asks for your job within the 4-minute disqualification period, whatever your honest answer is, she will disqualify you. Bad way to build rapport. This goes something like this:

Scenario One
Her: So what's your job?
You: I own my company. CEO.
Her: Oh, really? (At the back of her mind she is saying: Braggart. Some would even mumble that word if you try hard enough to listen to a woman's mumbles.)

Scenario Two
Her: So what do you do?
You: Just fine. I work in the restaurant business.
Her: Oh... (At the back of her mind she is saying: He's probably a waiter. He seems to lack ambition.)

Best way to build rapport when she asks about your job or what you do: what-is-your-job-vt131511.html Learn it and learn it well brother.

_________________
Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

general-questions/topic137931.html

Thanks for the intial feedback guys. I do appreciate you taking the time to share your feedback. I believe you are going the right direction.. Ill share a little more so we can find a method to solve the problem.

Im the type of guy who gets nervous, energetic or intimated quickly. I think its my metobolism, but hopefully its something that can be addressed.

Im embarrased to share this, but Ill share a couple of examples that affected me and made me more uncomfortable.

For example, once I was talking to a friend and we were going to go into a room in a gym. Inside, I was surprised to find 3 young ladies in bikinis. I did simple conversation like, introducing myself and my friend "whats your name?" "what do you do?" "whats your major?" "what do you enjoy doing?" but there was some awkwardness at the same time and I guess i ran out of things to say. then one of them rushed her friends out of the room and I felt very nervous as if i did something wrong. (although my only intent was to simply be nice and friendly.)

Another time I was visiting a resturant, and there was a waitress at a resturant who was bubbly with her friends by the cashier. I tried to match her personality and be bubbly and friendly back offering to be a friend to her, however the manager asked me to leave. It was embarrasing.

Embarrassing outcomes dont happen often.. maybe 3 or 4 times in my life, but its enough to make me cautious about talking to women, especially younger women until I have this sitation understood and solved.

Are these comments helpful in determining what Im doing wrong?

Thanks for your thoughts.

any additional thoughts guys?

It appears that you have been too focused on the verbal side of rapport building. Study this scientific journal: http://www.nova.edu/ssss/QR/QR15-2/goodboy.pdf

You might learn a few pointers there. If you know how to read women's body signals, you can better calibrate the topics you ought to bounce around with. The key in wide rapport building is to read these non-verbal signals to gauge a woman's interest so you'll know which deep rapport topic should you go into in the sarging stage to build deep emotional connections on.

Focus on giving fun to the person you're trying to build rapport with. This different focus will change everything.

_________________
Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

general-questions/topic137931.html

Thanks for sharing. I read the article and will re-read it for things I have missed. While my intention was simply to be friendly and not flirting, one can learn to look for certain signals that the article contains. However more understanding is still needed to address this serious issue.

One thing that I found very serious was where it states, "Moreover, because unwanted flirting has serious consequences such as perceived sexual harassment or obsessive relational intrusion (Cupach & Spitzberg, 2004; Keyton & Rhodes), flirters may be well advised to remain perceptive of rejection to avoid such predatory outcomes." Rejection Im ok with. Being accused of harrassment when only friendly communication was intended Im not. It can have serious long term consequences. My belief has been it never hurts to try to be nice to someone, however, the reality is it could.

For example, the situation described with the girls. They left, which was the trigger described in the article, and the trigger was very obvious. But seeing that trigger of them leaving in the article might have been too late. Ive noticed that women can be very unconfrontational and what concerns me if they see an older guy who is a bit nervous around them, that rather than simply leave they get frightened and attempt to complain to security misjudging me or my intentions.

In the other story, even when communcation stopped after a minute or two, the lady complained to the manager that I made her uncomfortable. In the story with the girls, I wonder if when the others left quickly, one doesnt know if they went to the security or anything complaining about me. (I left about 5-10 minutes afterwards and not sure if I should return to enjoy the use of the gym... avoiding them of course)

Even if someone is innocent, if a younger lady feels uncomfortable, the older male will be villified. So basically while seeing these signs of rejection is good, I think more proactive advise to being able to commucate effectively before it gets to the point of the red flags occurring mentioned in that article.

Looking forward to continued advise as I definately need more information to understand ladies and how to communicate appropriately.

This fear that you have, of being "wrong" by talking to girls. It's very real and obviously it affects you. You talk about it in your last two posts.

Let me address the sexual harassment part. I approach girls in public and flirt with waitresses all the time. I've never been asked to leave an establishment or ever been told I was doing something illegal. I'm sorry that you were asked to leave one time, but I think once you find your optimum pick-up personality, it won't happen.

As for rejection, awkward situations, and other more trivial "wrong-ness," those are blips on the path to success. You can't ever succeed if you don't expose yourself to failure, and you can't ever succeed if you let failure make you quit. All you can do is keep trying, and the failures are fewer and fewer.

You could have easily summed it up by saying "with opportunity comes risk, and with risk comes opportunity". I've noticed your posts are a bit long-winded and sometimes meander off into nowhere. Try to keep things a bit more concise and to the point.

I think the first posts were giving the most helpful information to find what im doing wrong. Someone suggested adding more details of what i was doing.

I agree practice makes perfect. but also the defination of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Even at work, a lot of times people avoid me although I talk to people often, maybe too much. Although I mention being kicked out, a couple times I have also been "questioned" and looked at with disdain which makes me believe there is something that needs fixing . I agree that fear is a big part of it., however, im not sure if there is more to it than that and I dont know how to fix it safely. The fear is probably creating the nervousness and perhaps other signs which is making others uncomfortable.

What I would think would be great is if I could find someone from eastcoast usa to watch me one day/night to critque me. Otherwise, further information here would be greatly appreciated and helpful.

I am comfortable with the risk of rejection. I am not comfortable with the risk of harrassment as that could cause serious impact on my ability to earn a living and function. Looking forward to hearing more.

Okay, here's my take on your situation.

You've read the non-verbal rejection signals way too late into the 4-minute disqualification period in the first case. While in the second case, you stayed far too long even though the 4-minute disqualification period was not yet up.

Now that you know the non-verbal rejection signals, what you need to know is the non-verbal LIKE signals if you wish to breach that 4-minute disqualification mark. This scientific journal used to be free but it's no longer free, here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11146304

The gist is, when you see those like signals for the first 1 minute, then you can go on to the next minute and so on. If you don't see any like signals, you can just bail out and say, "Pleased to meet you. Have a nice day."

In summary from the scientific journal, these are some of the like signals that you have to look for:

• 1. Primp
  2. Head toss
  3. Head tilt
  4. Palm (pointing at you when woman is seated).
  5. Head down
  6. Shrug
  7. Coy smile
  8. Laugh

As you can see from the list, making women laugh is the most obvious indicator of a like signal. Simply, it's your ticket to building rapport. If you can't make a woman laugh or giggle the first minute, it's a tall order to overextend your stay past into the 4-minute mark. The best option is to bail out gracefully before you get those non-verbal rejection signals.

As I've said, this is the area where older men commit the most common mistake. They immediately go into DEEP rapport building. Women subconsciously know that deep rapport can take at the very least 30 minutes and can go on for as long as 2 or 3 hours. If you can give women a fun vibe during the first minute, then and ONLY then can you go into deep rapport AFTER 10 minutes.

The first 10 minutes must be devoted to making a younger woman giggle or laugh and keep her interest with wide rapport routines until that 10 minutes is up. FUN is a woman's greatest incentive to keep up a conversation with you for one minute or more.

_________________
Approach. Open. Escalate. Isolate

Here are my two essential rules on texting that will save you tons of time and money:

general-questions/topic137931.html

I do appreciate you taking the time to share information. As I attempt to assimulate the information, here are some questions.

I am starting to understand the basics of the 4 minute/1 minute rule but still need to learn more. One thing to keep in mind that, unlike many here, Im not trying to flirt, simply to build rapport for respect and to be a gentleman. The page answering the question what work I do may be good for flirting but appear to discuss body parts or romantic activies which is not the direction I was intending on taking the conversation and not my personality style which is more celebate. Im simply trying to have a friendly conversation and if one may think Im perverted now, Im curious if they will that even more with those kind of lines. It wouldnt hurt my feelings if ladies were interested in me that way, however Id be happy to simply to be able to have conversations and get to know them as a human being.

As I review the article on bodily signs of disinterest it lists 5 signs of lack of interest...Departure, friendship network (friends dragging one away) cell phone usage (lying with wrong number or playing with phone) ignoring or facial expressions. Very few of these tend to help if the lady is uncomfortable with you and is being polite by staying and talking. If any of these are noticed (and they may not be) I think its fairly obvious they arent interested but those signs are very blunt and easy to see. So while they're good to know, they appear to be extreme rather than early signs to end or change conversation. Are there other signs that could be seen sooner that would be more proactive?

The summary of the article of showing signs of interest is good. A question is Im not looking for the girl to be interested in me, simply have a polite converation. Yet I guess Im asking that if I dont get those signals should I assume shes not interested in a polite conversation? A friend said girls are not interested in talking politely with guys, and only looking for guys they may have a romantic or sexual interest in. Is this true? For example, if Im talking to either a potential client or a simple conversation on a bus home, should there be the need for those attraction signs to continue the conversation? I can see leaving quickly if I dont see the signs with younger ladies for safety sense, but Im curious if you feel if the interest for flirtation are the signals of attraction are applicable?

I like the idea of making a lady laugh or smile. I always enjoy saying something to make someone happy. I also understand that I have to be in that state also. Sometimes I can be in that state however other times I could freeze up, be extremely nervous etc. inside. How much it shows, I dont know but this could send the wrong signal. In the one story with the waitress I was very upbeat (overtired) and simply walking around talking to people for a few seconds to a minute or two (both guys and girls) and then going onto the next I was I very upbeat and friendly so it could have had that possiblity, however we all are the result of the training of our experiences. In the story where the 3 ladies in bikinis were in the room I was nervous. It could have been around the 4 minute time when they left. (I dont remember exactly.. It could have been 3 minutes it could have been 8 minutes) Not all the time I was talking to them. I was attempting to have a conversation with my friend and include them within it but I know I felt uncomfortable with them there as I was expecting maybe a guy or two in the room and they caught me off guard which could have caused me not to be observant of warning signs until they left.

How do I overcome nervousness when in the presence of an attractive younger girl? Im familiar with anchoring good feelings etc. but I havent really been successful in having it happen especially with my fearful or nervous disposition?

Looking forward to learning more.

"Risk" implies a negative consequence for failure. There is no negative consequence when you fail in approaches.

Sure, I'll try to simplify things for you, but only if you promise not to follow me around the forum criticizing me. Love you babe!