Debating on this forum; Check your ego.



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:41 pm 
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I'll start by saying I am guilty as fuck off this.

There are broadly 3 Categories of people in debates.

People whos ego often get involved and they get pissy, people whos ego gets involved rarely. And people whos ego gets involved and they tell the other person they have ego problems.

It's very easy to just blame the other person in a debate for having an ego. But Maybe you are mis-communicating, maybe you are just wrong...

Telling someone they are deluded, that they have an ego or they have to have an open mind is BULLSHIT. I have debated for about 4 and half years of my life on a fairly intensive level. And I have never seen the "pride/ego/open mind" argument executed in a situation where someone has provided sufficient evidence or logical proof for their claims and/or beliefs.

Granted there will be times when the person in question does have an ego problem, or is closed-minded.

But 99.9% of the time when you say...

"You have an ego!"; what you really mean is "You disagree and I think my logic is so perfect that I hypothisise you MUST be disagreeing with me just to avoid looking like you have been defeated."

"You are deluded."; what you really mean is "We disagree, but I'm going to lump the blame on you and pretend that there is no way that I am in the wrong."

"Have an open mind"; what you probably mean is "What I am discussing cannot and has not been proven logically or empiracally; but I want you to ignore that and to agree with me anyway."

Don't kid yourself by pinning the blame on the other person.

People argue PERIOD.

And sometimes thsoe debates are going to get heated, and they are going to go on a long time. But this does not mean that the other person has some massive characteristical flaw. You disagree and now you are working to see who is "correct" :)

As far as people learning and people teaching; as oppossed to debate.

If you are here to learn, you need to be open to new approaches, but that does not mean throwing logic out the wondow. Learn to evaluate what you are being taught and assess it objectively. As far as teaching goes, back up what you teach with logical proof or empirical evidence. Otherwise you're not teaching anything, you're just telling peoples your beliefs and expecting your students to swallow.

To Conclude.

1. Cut the Pseudo-psycho-babbelry; you're John Q Forum-member, not "Mysterio The Mind Reader". If you can read people, good for you, but unless you are analysing someones game leave it out of the debate and just debate. best way to find someone with an ego, is to beat them rationally and see how they re-act :)

2. Try to avoid using what could be conscrewed as ad-hominem attacks like "you have self esteem issues" and leave that for where it is appropriate.

2. Arguing is natural in all intellectual discussions; look at it as a team effort to figure out something new, or spread information.

3. Teaching, learning or arguing, look for people who back up their claims with sound logic and reasoning. It just makes sense. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:23 am 
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look for people who back up their claims with sound logic and reasoning. It just makes sense.
Your saying that the truth or correct view point is always logical.
I think he's saying that the people who back up their claims with sound logic and reasoning are more likely to be right.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:54 pm 
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look for people who back up their claims with sound logic and reasoning. It just makes sense.
Your saying that the truth or correct view point is always logical.
All humans are mortal.

Plato is human.

Therefore Plato is not mortal.

Care to show how the conclusion is correct?

Considering the premises at hand the conclusion is illogical and by it's very nature, false until other premises are given or the inference from premises to conclusion is proved to be flawed.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:38 pm 
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trying to get people to have a civilised conversation over the internet?
I feel the only way to answer that sort of statement is with this:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:27 am 
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Ooohhh !!! Thought we enjoyed some steam in this forum ! Does that mean we wouldn't see Kasabi scolding kids in here or guys fighting over rep points. What about people calliing each other names.....All that fun would be cut down !! Damn you Fin :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:52 am 
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look for people who back up their claims with sound logic and reasoning. It just makes sense.
Your saying that the truth or correct view point is always logical.
I think he's saying that the people who back up their claims with sound logic and reasoning are more likely to be right.
Hitler believed the jews were the source of all problems.

* Jealousy. Some Jews were successful and held "visible" positions in Austria and Germany in the 1920s and 1930s. In the Great Depression. Germany was hit the hardest by the worldwide economic depression, and successful Jews were envied.

* Some Germans believed that "Jewish bankers" were responsible for the Treaty of Versailles.

* Jews became a scapegoat for Germany's economic problems. (According to this racist sentiment, "international Jewish financiers had plunged the world into a war and the Depression for their business profit.")

* Hitler and many Nazis were influenced by the notorious anti-Semitic book called "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion."

* Hitler lived in Vienna from 1907 to 1913 and those were the most difficult years of his life. Hitler was trying to become an artist or to make himself a name in field of arts. He was twice rejected from the Vienna Academy of Fine Art. He claimed that the professors that rejected him were Jewish ... [However, none of the members of the selection panel was Jewish].

* The Nazis had a vision of an Aryan German race that did not include Jews and many other groups of people.

* Here is an example of Hitler's anti-Semitic racism from a speech given in Munich in July 1922: "His is no master people; he is an exploiter: the Jews are a people of robbers. He has never founded any civilization, though he has destroyed civilizations by the hundred...everything he has stolen. Foreign people, foreign workmen build him his temples, it is foreigners who create and work for him, it is foreigners who shed their blood for him."

* Some say Hitler and the Nazis were opportunistic demagogues. Inciting hatred of the Jews was the means to an end. The Nazis used hatred of the Jews to unify the German people and create a new German empire. Nothing unites a people more than when they believe they are constantly under attack and fighting a common enemy. The Jews were convenient enemies. After propagating this idea of Jews being the scum of the earth so passionately, Hitler and the Nazis may have deluded themselves into believing it.

* Christianity had traditionally blamed the death of Christ on the Jews. One can see in the Bible the statement that the Jews demanded the death of Jesus, and said, "let it be upon our heads and that of our children." This became an excuse to abuse the Jews for more than a thousand years. It was not until the 1960s that the Catholic Church stated that the Jews were NOT to blame for the death of Jesus. Antisemitism was deeply embedded in European and American culture.

* In the 1930s there was a lot of anti-Jewish feeling and resentment in the Western world. Many Jews who tried to escape the persecution in Germany were refused entry into the US and other European countries and also many countries further afield.

* Antisemitism has been rife throughout European history, largely because the Jews were a distinct, identifiable group, who did not integrate. (Those who really wanted to integrate converted.) Of course, many now see pluralism as a virtue, and a variety of ethnicities and religions as a positive thing. However, in the inter war period diversity was often regarded as divisive and "disloyal".

* Another key element of a dictatorship is fear, and a visible scapegoat experiencing the wrath of the state is a good way to keep people from stepping out of line.

* Hitler stated: "The war is to be a war of annihilation". His henchman Heinrich Himmler declared: "All Poles will disappear from the world. . . . It is essential that the great German people should consider it as a major task to destroy all Poles."
* The Jews did absolutely nothing to deserve the SPAM they got. Like the Africans and the Indians the Jews were just picked for hatred and unjust things but again they did absolutely nothing!

* Since the 1870s the Jews had been the object of a new wave of demonization and conspiracy theories. On the whole this wasn't taken too seriously in Germany, but in Austria anti-Jewish conspiracy theories were spread by extreme right-wing politicians and also by the Roman Catholic Church, which knew perfectly well that these theories were rubbish. Young Adolf was a server (altar-boy) and may have been influenced by this.

* Well, there were more "sub-humans", as Hitler called those poor people, than he could handle. He had to find ways to kill them without making it too obvious. That's when the real Holocaust started [1941]! He built extermination camps, where he could kill many thousands of people at a time.

* Hitler blamed Germany's defeat in WWI on the Jews, and he hated them. When he took power he started rounding them up. He did the same when he started taking over other countries. He used the Jews, Poles, gays, gypsies, Russians and mentally challenged people as slave labor and then started to annihilate them in gas chambers. His reason - hatred. He classed the above mentioned people as sub human and basically in his Nazi world there was no place for the "sub human", only the Aryan (blonde hair blue eyed Germans)

* To understand the Holocaust you have to understand the Darwinian biology of the time. There was a growing sense, particularly since Ernst Haeckel, that there were those in society who were 'biologically' inferior and that for a 'fit' world to survive and thrive, those who were 'unfit' should be done away with. Instead of letting nature take its course, there was a unspoken sense that humans could take matters into their own hands. I am obviously not supporting this twisted logic, but that is a key to understanding how a number of things converged to create the nightmare of the century. [However, 'biological inferiority' is subjective. In Britain, for example, many Social Darwinists, especially those active in education, were most impressed by the achievements of Jews in schools and universities and concluded that they were a 'superior breed' ... This view was to some extent echoed in Nazi conspiracy theories, which painted a picture of diabolically cunning Jews].

* Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's defeat in World War I.

* Not only did Hitler thank the Jewish doctor who treated his mother, apparently he allowed the doctor to escape Nazi Germany without repercussions. (Doesn't sound like he was too angry at the man).

* He didn't only kill Jews. He killed Communists, liberals, homosexuals, gypsies and many other groups, including millions of victims of warfare. Why he did is up for debate, but I'd guess a mixture of antisemitism and stereotypes of the as Jews as Communists, subsersives and all kinds of other things - as a means to an end. A common way to gain power is to spread fear and panic about an enemy (real or imaginary), stir up hatred and present yourself as the only person able to 'save' the country.

Enough claims and theories to go by. Was he right?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:20 am 
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Good post Fin, respect.

I think ego is cool thing to have.......if you're smart and you know how to use it.

And sometimes you just have to piss someone off in order to learn something:) plus it's more fun ahahahahahaha

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:50 pm 
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good post .. i enjoy this...

helping people without ego is emphasizing them to solve their own problems, you don't fix the problem but you inspire them to do it themselfs.
You cannot help people if you want to get something out of it, you have to be seriously neutral and independent - that's why i personally don't reply on certain threats because i feel im judging or forcing myself to express.
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And sometimes you just have to piss someone off in order to learn something''
well it's not your fault they get pissed off because they get the truth served as breakfast :P.

Ego is never a problem but you can seriously tell someone he is emphasizing with his ego, there is nothing wrong with that - i don't judge what is wrong or right and il bet some egos have saved a few asses on this planet

Lol jav ( good post tho ) i see you focusing on all the inhumane and negative facts about hitler... what about the positive things he has brought us ? we learned alot of lessons from WW2 positive lessons - let's stop lingering in the past and invest in the future.
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Not only did Hitler thank the Jewish doctor who treated his mother, apparently he allowed the doctor to escape Nazi Germany without repercussions. (Doesn't sound like he was too angry at the man).
i love this one because this one shows that everyone has potential compassion, everyone has goodness deep inside. the truth is weirder than fiction lol.
hitler isn't a rascist ... he has his own moral values which are in conflict with our personal values, we judge and we say hitler is bad and a rascist.
but what we are merely doing is judging... like hitler judged homo's niggers and jews are bad thus we are lowering ourselfs to his level.
If you look at it like this you realise there are enough hitlers walking this earth right now. Hitler judged and you are the same by judging hitler

Hitler said fuck you and we are doing the same by saying '' hitler is a fucker''
why did ''god'' made hitler and why did ''god'' allow hitler to perform his apocalypse ? because god doesn't judge what is good or wrong.
Should we blame hitler, get angry and let our life run by negative thoughts or should we blame god for creating hitler ?
you can't blame anyone.... hitler endured a shitload of pain in world war 1 , il bet he was traumtized by it. why not blame the people who drafted hitler and started WW1 ? im not defending hitler but he is a victim like everyone else is on this planet everybody endured pain to some degree including hitler. Hitler was just ignorant...il bet if hitler was born in tibet somwhere in a monastary things would be different.

without wrong there is no good
and without good there is no wrong
we have to thank hitler for letting us experience the darker side so we can see the goodness. darkness is the start of enlightment, mistakes are the start of the learning process , dawn is the beginning of sunrise.

thank hitler we had WAR before we had 1000 nukes in our weaponry, good thing we learned lessons in 1940 -1945 and not in 1960 otherwise we all would speak caveman language, russian and chinese. Read viktor frankl his books there are meanings in every situation.

thus we can't really pick one side, try to not judge

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:18 pm 
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Ego is a cool thing. Especially with insecure people...you can use it to your advantage. Like for AMOG's and hotgirls bitchshields.
I often use ego of girls to get them to do something. It's funny.

I have a belt buckle with a big red STOP sign ahahahahahahahahaha and when the girl (especially a hot one) ask me why do I have it I just say ''I wear it because of girls like you;)'' and I turn around ahahahahahahahaha

And you can see their ego rise, like ''who the fuck is this guy who thinks that he can cut me off like this, I'll show him'' and they invest and invest and invest until they cant go back:)))

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Your saying that the truth or correct view point is always logical.
I think he's saying that the people who back up their claims with sound logic and reasoning are more likely to be right.
Hitler believed the jews were the source of all problems.

* Jealousy. Some Jews were successful and held "visible" positions in Austria and Germany in the 1920s and 1930s. In the Great Depression. Germany was hit the hardest by the worldwide economic depression, and successful Jews were envied.

* Some Germans believed that "Jewish bankers" were responsible for the Treaty of Versailles.

* Jews became a scapegoat for Germany's economic problems. (According to this racist sentiment, "international Jewish financiers had plunged the world into a war and the Depression for their business profit.")

* Hitler and many Nazis were influenced by the notorious anti-Semitic book called "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion."

* Hitler lived in Vienna from 1907 to 1913 and those were the most difficult years of his life. Hitler was trying to become an artist or to make himself a name in field of arts. He was twice rejected from the Vienna Academy of Fine Art. He claimed that the professors that rejected him were Jewish ... [However, none of the members of the selection panel was Jewish].

* The Nazis had a vision of an Aryan German race that did not include Jews and many other groups of people.

* Here is an example of Hitler's anti-Semitic racism from a speech given in Munich in July 1922: "His is no master people; he is an exploiter: the Jews are a people of robbers. He has never founded any civilization, though he has destroyed civilizations by the hundred...everything he has stolen. Foreign people, foreign workmen build him his temples, it is foreigners who create and work for him, it is foreigners who shed their blood for him."

* Some say Hitler and the Nazis were opportunistic demagogues. Inciting hatred of the Jews was the means to an end. The Nazis used hatred of the Jews to unify the German people and create a new German empire. Nothing unites a people more than when they believe they are constantly under attack and fighting a common enemy. The Jews were convenient enemies. After propagating this idea of Jews being the scum of the earth so passionately, Hitler and the Nazis may have deluded themselves into believing it.

* Christianity had traditionally blamed the death of Christ on the Jews. One can see in the Bible the statement that the Jews demanded the death of Jesus, and said, "let it be upon our heads and that of our children." This became an excuse to abuse the Jews for more than a thousand years. It was not until the 1960s that the Catholic Church stated that the Jews were NOT to blame for the death of Jesus. Antisemitism was deeply embedded in European and American culture.

* In the 1930s there was a lot of anti-Jewish feeling and resentment in the Western world. Many Jews who tried to escape the persecution in Germany were refused entry into the US and other European countries and also many countries further afield.

* Antisemitism has been rife throughout European history, largely because the Jews were a distinct, identifiable group, who did not integrate. (Those who really wanted to integrate converted.) Of course, many now see pluralism as a virtue, and a variety of ethnicities and religions as a positive thing. However, in the inter war period diversity was often regarded as divisive and "disloyal".

* Another key element of a dictatorship is fear, and a visible scapegoat experiencing the wrath of the state is a good way to keep people from stepping out of line.

* Hitler stated: "The war is to be a war of annihilation". His henchman Heinrich Himmler declared: "All Poles will disappear from the world. . . . It is essential that the great German people should consider it as a major task to destroy all Poles."
* The Jews did absolutely nothing to deserve the SPAM they got. Like the Africans and the Indians the Jews were just picked for hatred and unjust things but again they did absolutely nothing!

* Since the 1870s the Jews had been the object of a new wave of demonization and conspiracy theories. On the whole this wasn't taken too seriously in Germany, but in Austria anti-Jewish conspiracy theories were spread by extreme right-wing politicians and also by the Roman Catholic Church, which knew perfectly well that these theories were rubbish. Young Adolf was a server (altar-boy) and may have been influenced by this.

* Well, there were more "sub-humans", as Hitler called those poor people, than he could handle. He had to find ways to kill them without making it too obvious. That's when the real Holocaust started [1941]! He built extermination camps, where he could kill many thousands of people at a time.

* Hitler blamed Germany's defeat in WWI on the Jews, and he hated them. When he took power he started rounding them up. He did the same when he started taking over other countries. He used the Jews, Poles, gays, gypsies, Russians and mentally challenged people as slave labor and then started to annihilate them in gas chambers. His reason - hatred. He classed the above mentioned people as sub human and basically in his Nazi world there was no place for the "sub human", only the Aryan (blonde hair blue eyed Germans)

* To understand the Holocaust you have to understand the Darwinian biology of the time. There was a growing sense, particularly since Ernst Haeckel, that there were those in society who were 'biologically' inferior and that for a 'fit' world to survive and thrive, those who were 'unfit' should be done away with. Instead of letting nature take its course, there was a unspoken sense that humans could take matters into their own hands. I am obviously not supporting this twisted logic, but that is a key to understanding how a number of things converged to create the nightmare of the century. [However, 'biological inferiority' is subjective. In Britain, for example, many Social Darwinists, especially those active in education, were most impressed by the achievements of Jews in schools and universities and concluded that they were a 'superior breed' ... This view was to some extent echoed in Nazi conspiracy theories, which painted a picture of diabolically cunning Jews].

* Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's defeat in World War I.

* Not only did Hitler thank the Jewish doctor who treated his mother, apparently he allowed the doctor to escape Nazi Germany without repercussions. (Doesn't sound like he was too angry at the man).

* He didn't only kill Jews. He killed Communists, liberals, homosexuals, gypsies and many other groups, including millions of victims of warfare. Why he did is up for debate, but I'd guess a mixture of antisemitism and stereotypes of the as Jews as Communists, subsersives and all kinds of other things - as a means to an end. A common way to gain power is to spread fear and panic about an enemy (real or imaginary), stir up hatred and present yourself as the only person able to 'save' the country.

Enough claims and theories to go by. Was he right?
If you are arguing against me :)

Firstly that's a "Godwin".

A Godwin is an argument which involves comparing a persons stance to the Nazi's it's usually an argument of association and bears no logical grouding.

Example:

Conservitive: You know, Nazi Germany was a Liberal State.


The logic is this...

x= Uses rationality and logic
H = Has a connection in some way to Nazism.

E(x) H(x) -> V(x) H(x)

There is an x who is H therefore all x aee H.

There is a person who uses rationality and logic who has a connection in some way to Nazism; therefore all people who use rationality and logic have a connection to Nazism.

I know you would disagree with this ^^

But the truth is one person trying* to use something and then doing bad things; is not a case against that one thing.

* You'll note I said trying; Hitler made all those claims, most of these were baseless, and his logical thinking on many things outside of that WAS flawed.

If you look at the tennents that Nazism rests on they are all based on false-hoods and invalid logic.

If they weren't then why would you posit the idea that hitler was incorrect.

If Hitlers theories were all logically consistent and all his claims true. Then Hitler by nature would be correct! But we know he isn't just by examining his claims and his logical proof.

:)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Ego is a cool thing. Especially with insecure people...you can use it to your advantage. Like for AMOG's and hotgirls bitchshields.
I often use ego of girls to get them to do something. It's funny.

I have a belt buckle with a big red STOP sign ahahahahahahahahaha and when the girl (especially a hot one) ask me why do I have it I just say ''I wear it because of girls like you;)'' and I turn around ahahahahahahahaha

And you can see their ego rise, like ''who the fuck is this guy who thinks that he can cut me off like this, I'll show him'' and they invest and invest and invest until they cant go back:)))
Just beware, Prosp3ct, of getting hoist by your own petard :) Ego has teeth, to be sure, but those teeth have a funny way of biting you back. It sounds like you think right now that ego is a weapon turned only outward. First, those with true inner strength don't need to wield weapons against others. Second, those with true inner strength realize that any such aggression has a boomerang effect; it will swing around and hit home, often with multiplied force.

Hope this is food for thought :)

Ciornia


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:09 pm 
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Your saying that the truth or correct view point is always logical.
I think he's saying that the people who back up their claims with sound logic and reasoning are more likely to be right.

Enough claims and theories to go by. Was he right?
I don't believe he was no,but that was not what I meant.

All jews are bad + evidence holds more weight than simply saying all jews are bad.

Evidence always holds more weight, no matter how ludicrous the claim is.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:38 pm 
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Evidence always holds more weight, no matter how ludicrous the claim is.
i hope you aren't a religious person lol

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Ego is a cool thing. Especially with insecure people...you can use it to your advantage. Like for AMOG's and hotgirls bitchshields.
I often use ego of girls to get them to do something. It's funny.

I have a belt buckle with a big red STOP sign ahahahahahahahahaha and when the girl (especially a hot one) ask me why do I have it I just say ''I wear it because of girls like you;)'' and I turn around ahahahahahahahaha

And you can see their ego rise, like ''who the fuck is this guy who thinks that he can cut me off like this, I'll show him'' and they invest and invest and invest until they cant go back:)))
Just beware, Prosp3ct, of getting hoist by your own petard :) Ego has teeth, to be sure, but those teeth have a funny way of biting you back. It sounds like you think right now that ego is a weapon turned only outward. First, those with true inner strength don't need to wield weapons against others. Second, those with true inner strength realize that any such aggression has a boomerang effect; it will swing around and hit home, often with multiplied force.

Hope this is food for thought :)

Ciornia
Totaly agree...

But here's a methapor for thinking.
Let's say you need to kill someone. Would you use a dangerous sniper gun or a primitive and totaly simple knife?
A stupid hitman would choose a knife because you dont need any learning, you just stab your target. But it's WAY more chance that you will get cought.

A smart hitman would choose a sniper gun, probably he'll fucked up sometimes, maybe he would even shot himself in his foot. He would maybe even break his gun so he'd have to buy a new one.
But he would stick up to his learning...
And when he would learn to use the sniper gun properly he would have so fucking more advantages than the guy with a knife that's not even funny.


What I'm saying is that choose the fucking dangerous way and learn to control it. Fuck up many times. Even shot yourself in your leg sort of speaking.
But when you heal you'll be so much better than all the other guys that's not even funny. Aim high.
It's better to have 50% skills of a perfect game than 99% of a medium skilled game.
Safer way sucks, it's inferior and what's more important LESS FUN:)))

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:40 pm 
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Evidence always holds more weight, no matter how ludicrous the claim is.
i hope you aren't a religious person lol
Nope, but even if I was it wouldn't matter. Faith is different to boldly proclaiming things to be true without evidence.


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