Dear Forum Members,

I choose my words carefully since it has been a long time since I have made a post on the forums of any substance. I took a break from the community and women for many months after coming to several realizations about “the community,” and about myself.

Now I’m not going to sit here and list my reasons for my change because honestly you probably don’t care and it’d be a waste of my time and yours. What I am going to do is clarify a few facts about why I think many of us join and the alternative path many of us take after being here for a while.

There is no doubt that I have been on the forums for a while now, and no one can deny the fact that I have replied to a lot of posts in my days. I have seen a lot of guys transform and helped many of them in the process personally or through the forum. A lot of the posts I read and respond to are posted by new guys to the community. Many of them are looking for the same things I was and you where when we started.

-Companionship/Relationship
-Social Intelligence
-Validation
-Friends

Now the truth of the matter is what brings us here initially is the fact that sex sells. The idea of having basically any women you want is a great selling tool. The truth in the matter to some degree it’s obtainable if you have the drive and endurance to stick it out. However, there is a much deeper motivation that brings us here.

Most of you don’t want to hear this but many people come here for validation. The validation I speak of is that you all have become men in some form or fashion. Many of us didn’t get this validation from our parents, friends, or loved ones in our life and are seeking it. However, neither the forum nor the community can ever give you this. Sure, the posts of accolades given to you after a successful night out can sure help. Even the feeling after number closing or kiss closing a really hot girl helps. Like any drug and high after a while you want more of it.

We read about this “rock star” type of lifestyle, and our goals change from what we initially wanted with our good intentions for a relationship and to develop ourselves to going after lays. The lay is just the next strongest drug in the ladder of all this. I can tell you my friends after a while you still feel the same way. Despite all the pulls I’ve managed you’re left feeling just as alone as when you joined the forum in the first place. You are left searching for something you forgot about long ago…a meaningful relationship.

If you notice few in this community have actually achieved that while practicing pickup. Sure many of us have left the community and found “love” later but few develop relationships out of a pickup and turn them into something. The majority of us are left to figure out the “magic formula” from pickup to getting a relationship. The truth is it’s not all that complicated but the community has little to do with it.

Don’t take this post as me just bashing away at the piñata of the community because I’m not, I am simply showing you another path. I am grateful for the things and experiences I have had with pickup in the sense they led me to where I am now. There are many great social skills you can learn, you can get over your anxiety in social situations, and learn to tackle your fears head on, and many more things.

Another reason many of us join here is we are looking for friends that can understand where we are at this point in our lives. We are at a point where we are single, frustrated, and feel socially awkward. Then we see there is this community of men who have the same problem. We join for comradery for the most part, and then we see the community can help get women too. What a deal!

The person you are dating or courting deserves respect. The idea of treating people with the respect that you would like to be treated with is not an AFC idea. Other ideas of chivalry, honor, integrity, and pride are not AFC ideas either. Many of us get it in our heads that we have to do a 180 from everything we believed in the past in order to get the girl. Actually, it’s more like a 45 degree turn. You don’t have to give up those values to get the girl, but there are a few adjustments that need to be made.

Going at this from the perspective of being the best “you” that you can be is the winning formula. I don’t doubt that it helps to have change in your life. Women are a heck of a motivating factor for many of us. For women we’ll get in shape, get a haircut, acquire some trendy clothes, and even learn some long needed social skills. There is nothing wrong with that, but it means nothing if you compromise your values in the process.

Who are you? Most of us believe as men that we are defined by what we do in life. Well pardon me but when they are defining me at my funeral I really don’t want it to read, “Here lies JSmooth…X amount of numbers, X amount of kiss closes, and X amount of Lays. He once went 7 for 7 and his 4100 posts contributions to the community will be remembered.” Okay, I’m using an extreme example but you get the idea.

Women truly want a man that has values and endurance not to compromise his beliefs. Women do truly want a “good guy” that doesn’t send them mixed signals. Ladies want men that are going to fight for them, they want to be caught up in something, and courted if you will. Most of them don’t want to play games at all. However, the will put up with our games if they like us. Hell women will put up with a whole lot of shit if they like you. Don’t believe me. Go out and try to get blown out of a set. It’s harder than it sounds…if a woman like you she will give you a great many chances to win her over. In many cases this doesn’t help us as men because we get mixed results because they perpetuate the cycle by allowing us to behave that way when they like us.

The things I want to be remembered for don’t include anything to do with the community, and I doubt many of you really want that kind of engraving on your tombstone either. Here are the things I live by and it is my sincerest wish that you adapt these things into your life if you have not already.

*Honor- High respect for worth merit or rank. It is not stupid to have honor and to respect people. Have honor for yourselves and for others.

*Integrity- Doing the right thing. Doing the right thing when no one is looking is part of this quality as well. Living your life with this quality is a choice but life everything else in life. Also, I’ll say doing the right thing not because someone expects you to but because you truly want to.

*Chivalry- The sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms. Having manners is gentlemanly and it’s good to use them. It may sound AFC to many of you but believe me women stand and take notice. This goes back to living your life with honor.

*Being a Provider- Men define and pride themselves on being a provider for their loved oes. This has been this way since ancient times. This includes paying for dates and guests of yours when you invite them out to do something.

I really hope this is sinking in to your brains because somewhere along the lines many of us had these values, but lost sight of them along the way. Pickup can teach you a lot and at the same time it can distract you from your original goals. Many of us start believing these goals were costing us to be in relationships with women. I know 6-7 months ago you couldn't have convinced me of this stuff at all, cause I was caught up in the fog of the community and the "lifestyle."

They say that nice guys finish last…that may be true, and I will accept that but it really is how you get to the finish line that counts.

Sincerely,

Jon

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

Many paths, one truth

standing ovation. bravo. thunderous applause.

<3

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the place where optimism most flourishes is the lunatic asylum...

<----Takes a bow. Thanks but seriously why is it so many of us agree with this but so few of us say anything about it?

I appreciate all of your support whether voiced here on this thread or in private.

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

The reason so few of us say it, is because no matter how much we know this to be the truth. Guys just don't get it. You can only take such an open stance for so long, then its just beating a dead bush.

I think you can compare this to someone getting over alchoolism. You can't tell them 'sure have a glass of wine or so from time to time'. They have to go cold turkey. After the've been sober for a while they can start to re-introduce some alchool in their lifestyle.

The people that come to these bords and buy all this pick-up material are people who are not good with women. People that are not confident around themselves when it comes to interacting with women. They have to turn their life in order to change this. To take your angle analogy again, if you aim at turning 45 degrees you'll most likely end up at 20. Human nature. You don't want to quit your confort zone. If you aim to 180, then after you've made the turn, it will be easier to recalibrate to 45.

I wholeheartedly agree that a 45 degree change is what most people need. You have to keep your core values. You can't be here for self gratification or validation. But due to human nature, if you want a change, you have to take drastic actions.

Cheers!

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Drink me, make me feel real
Wet your beak in the stream
Game we're playing is life
Love is a two way dream

THANK YOU - Cheers!

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

J, I'm glad you decided to write this post after our discussion in the chat yesterday. I completely agree and hope that more of these guys take these words to heart.
It may seem hopeless but if people stop talking about this view, it will die. You can't expect to change someone's opinion everyday, it may never be the most popular outlook on pua, but that doesn't mean we should stop talking about it.

This however, is the reason why so many people eventually just leave the community. The general outlook will never change as long as places like mASF exist. The fact of the matter is, in any community/society majority rules. The majority has always been that way, and it would take an act of God for this to change.

Thanks Bonita and Hobbit!

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...

I agree with you 100%. There's PUA as a business (such as what Mystery, and all the other people running bootcamps are doing), and PUA as a path of personal development.

PUA as a business has to be made for the masses. That is why canned openers were made. That is why training routines were developed. That is why all the articles out there were written. Their purpose is to generate interest, and reach out to the masses.

PUA as a path of personal development, is where all your things such as identity, values and goals come in. Now, I know there are some teachers and coaches out there that take this into account. However, the onus is always on the aspiring PUA to find his own identity, values and goals.

People join the community, and the forums with a goal. Whether it is to f-close 100 women, date a supermodel, learn to get a girlfriend, or just simply to develop social skills. A training program will not address all of these, and neither will a year in the field.

Behind all the nights out sarging, the bonding sessions at your local lairs, the time spent peacocking yourself etc etc, some time for reflection and understanding is crucial. (At least it was for my development.)

It is this reflection and understanding that you guys share that I so value. So thank you Jsmooth and Hobbit for believing what you believe. I may not post much, but I do read everything I can get my hands on. Your posts have definitely made a difference to me, and given me lots to think about.

Interesting reflection . . .

There's always room to criticize strategy or technique in others. Simple example: If a guy's goal is to eat a delicious pizza and he's going to California Kitchen to find delicious pizza, I can criticize his strategy and offer a reason, "They use the absolute cheapest ingredients to increase their gross profit margins because their other expenses are way to high to make money otherwise." I might be right or wrong but that's my point. There could be a right or wrong.

However . . . while one is free to criticize his own aspirations, I am not sure how one can criticize the aspirations of others. How can somebody have the "wrong" aspirations? WE ARE aspirations. Our aspirations make us unique. Everything else is waking up, eating, walking around, shitting, sleeping and then repeating the process.

So a guy's goal is to seek validation? Fine by me. Let's figure out a strategy. You're (still) seeking validation by wanting to be "remembered" for a few sets of aspirations: Honor, Integrity, Chivalry, Provider. Great . . . Let's strategize and do it. Bravo! Clap, clap, clap. Now another guy is seeking validation by fucking 1,000 girls? Bravo, clap, clap, clap. There is absolutely no difference between the two. If you really value your new found aspirations as much as you say you do, it's even more the reason to respect the aspirations of others. . . not the other way around. If you see that others have "lost values" . . . they lost what YOU consider to be valuable.
Respecting your aspirations, I wouldn't have tried. Everybody is at a different point in their lives. Sure, hanging out in a tree-house all day long might seem like a waste of time to me. To a 7 year old, this is his life. I'd rather promote it rather than tell him to move on to the next phase.

Without stereotyping the average person who comes to this forum, consider this.

The change from "OMG SEX" to a more mature view on women and relationships normally occurs in high school, sort of 14 yr old guys until they leave university.

However, many of the people who come to this forum in their 20's never had those high school social experiences - therefore they won't emotionally mature past that stage (and have a heightened urge to succeed in this area because they feel they have missed out on something).

Since they are still in the mindset of the 14yr old where having sex is the ultimate achievement and sign of social status, when they learn how to get it, they try and get as much of it as possible to prove to the jocks (or whoever) at high school that actually, they are better than them.

The difference is, logistical, financial and lack of understanding prevent the actual 14 yr olds from going out to clubs and bars every night and bringing a woman home. Once you have your own place, can drink and get into clubs, can drive and have improved you social skill set, you are suddenly a lot less limited.

Most people who stick with the community realise what you have posted Jsmooth, notches on the bed post wont make you happy. I don't think it is something you can MAKE people understand though, more something people have to experience.

Madals

While I believe a lot of the things you learn here are positive I see all the time very narrow-minded people that rejects arguments, and their defenses against them was to go on personal assaults.

This made me think, why is this?
I believe that a lot of the guys in this community rely on techniques as their one way for comfort, as they feel uncomfortable by going outside of it. Whenever someone critizise them they take it personal, and thus defend against it by going personal against that person. It seems to me that they substitute their need for comfort and approval in real life into the community instead, and I believe approval is in fact healthy. Why wouldn't it be?

You surely have a point that most people has had a troublesome youth, but that is not entirely true. I know a great deal of people that all blame things on their growth, instead of themselves. As this make them able to distance themselves and let them escape the need to take action. I don't think people here has been in the situations of people living on the street and those are the ones who have had it really bad. In fact, most people actually have had it bad to some extent. The only difference is that some people stand for their misstakes, while others doesn't.

This made me start thinking recently in the same way as you post. I believe the AFC is a comfort zone made in order to be able to compare yourself towards others. It gives you comfort, but in a false way and thus creates the personal connection. It creates false validation, and this is what creates the real "players" or "manipulators". It make you bitter, because you don't solve the real problems and instead going into sections within yourself you should not visit.

To summarize my point: Approval is healthy, it is something essential to our life. But approval should come from a genuine compliment, not for working towards it. This is the fact the pua-community in my eyes has missunderstood, as most of what I can see is all about removing approval and in secret, do it here away from the rest of the world. As this is the last barrier, someone taking away your ego is bad, and thus creates a personal attachment to the things they post. It is a bad circle that to me seems like insanity. Why girls are so important I don't really understand, why getting constant lays I do not understand.

However, to quote the famous writer Shakespeare:
- Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds

Kasabi I don't make this post to seek validation from the forum I post this in order to open some people's eyes. I whole hearted appreciate the accolades of others but I only look to God for validation sir. I don't want to be remembered by my Lord as a guy just out there having sex with women, which is why I live my life by a different standard now. I post this so that others realize there is more than one path to getting the girl.
I strongly agree with you, but doesn't hurt to remind people. My mother told me once not to touch a hot stove. I didn't listed to her either. It seems I was destined to learn the hard way.

**Exerio you make a good point as well.**

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Been around the world twice, Talked to everyone once...